[jillybean]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 1♠    2♦    4♠    Pass
 Pass  5♣    5♠    Pass
 Pass  6♦    6♠    Dbl
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

And do you like 2♦ or is 2nt better?

[rogerclee]

2♦ is clear. Both 6♦ and 6♠ are really silly bids. I would double 5♠ with the N hand.

[pclayton]

rogerclee, on Apr 17 2008, 01:00 PM, said:

2♦ is clear. Both 6♦ and 6♠ are really silly bids. I would double 5♠ with the N hand.

Maybe, but you might pull the double to 6♣.

[rogerclee]

pclayton, on Apr 17 2008, 02:18 PM, said:

rogerclee, on Apr 17 2008, 01:00 PM, said:

2♦ is clear. Both 6♦ and 6♠ are really silly bids. I would double 5♠ with the N hand.

Maybe, but you might pull the double to 6♣.

I'd probably bid it over 5♠.

[cherdano]

5♣ is the first wrong bid (but it didn't cost). 5♣ shows 5=5 or 6=5 or 6=6 in the minors, you can't bid that with a 7-4 hand (partner will pass with 2=3 in the minors, which will be a disaster).

6♦ is bad, North has already shown a lot of shape. And 6♠ is very bad, East has already shown a lot AND he is bidding in front of partner (who opened the bidding) who might very well set 6♦ in his own hand.

[jtfanclub]

cherdano, on Apr 17 2008, 04:41 PM, said:

5♣ is the first wrong bid (but it didn't cost). 5♣ shows 5=5 or 6=5 or 6=6 in the minors, you can't bid that with a 7-4 hand (partner will pass with 2=3 in the minors, which will be a disaster).

Meh. I liked the 5♣ bid. Yes, I might catch partner with exactly 2-3 in the minors without the club king. Stuff happens when they jump to the 5 level.

I would have bid 6 clubs over 5 spades with the South hand. Failing to do so isn't an error, exactly, but whatever partner's looking for, I have to have it.

As for the 6♦ and 6♠ bids, well, other comments have covered it nicely.

Oddly enough, it'd end up in the same contract...

1♠ 2♦ 4♠ Pass
Pass 5♣ 5♠ 6♣
Pass Pass 6♠ Dbl

But at least now East is sacrificing over a making bid.

[mikeh]

2♦ is the correct bid, imo. Even if it were not, 2N would be horrible, truly horrible.

4♠ seems normal as do the next two passes.

5♣ is horrible.

I see two possible bids as North: 5♦ or 4N.

4N cannot be natural..... you overcalled a quiet 2♦ and now announce the ability to take 10 tricks in notrump? No. 4N shows diamonds and clubs with a marked preference for diamonds... 7=5 is certainly a possibility as well as some 6=4 hands, altho not many 6=4 hands qualify for a 5-level adventure opposite a partner who may have long, weak hearts and out.

I would probably have bid 5♦ because I would reason that I would far, far prefer to play in diamonds if partner were 1=3 in the minors, and we usually break even if he is 1=4. So what do I know?

5♠ is maybe too much.. he's bid his hand already but he is white v red and has the 6th spade so I don't think it is horrible and I might do it myself.

If I were south and heard partner bid 2♦ then 4N, I'd bid 6♣. I wouldn't be at all sure that I knew who could make what, but if partner held void x KQJxxxx AKxxx (and she could well have more), slam is good and we might not beat their 5♠.

If N merely bid 5♦, rather than 4N, I think that there is a case for doubling as South, but I'd be worried on the auction and might well pass.

And if N bid 5♦ and 5♠ came around, the same holds true for her.. a case for doubling, but I'd probably pass.

As for East's 6♠.... all I can say is that it makes me feel ill. 4♠ showed the hand, or almost all of it. Anything left unsaid was surely said via 5♠. This East doesn't deserve a partner.

[cherdano]

jtfanclub, on Apr 17 2008, 04:25 PM, said:

cherdano, on Apr 17 2008, 04:41 PM, said:

5♣ is the first wrong bid (but it didn't cost). 5♣ shows 5=5 or 6=5 or 6=6 in the minors, you can't bid that with a 7-4 hand (partner will pass with 2=3 in the minors, which will be a disaster).

Meh. I liked the 5♣ bid. Yes, I might catch partner with exactly 2-3 in the minors without the club king. Stuff happens when they jump to the 5 level.

Uhm. Try playing 5♣ opposite xxx xxxxx xx Kxx on a major suit lead and continuation. Doubled. No trumps don't break 3-3.
Yeah,-1100 or -1400 or -1700 vs their non-vulnerable game can happen, but no need to help it with such a clear mistake. You either bid 5♦ or 4N with the North hand.

(Btw, 5♣ can easily be wrong even opposite 1=4 in the minors.)

[jillybean]

mikeh, on Apr 17 2008, 03:48 PM, said:

5♣ is horrible.

Yep I can see that now but at the time I thought my first 2 bids were fine. I would never have made the 2♦ /4nt bid although it makes perfect after reading the posts.
I know so little about this game and its getting worse not better.

[blackshoe]

Actually, the beginning of wisdom lies in discovering how much you don't know - so you're definitely progressing.

[jtfanclub]

cherdano, on Apr 17 2008, 06:23 PM, said:

Uhm. Try playing 5♣ opposite xxx xxxxx xx Kxx on a major suit lead and continuation. Doubled. No trumps don't break 3-3.

So partner thinks I misbid 2♦?

If I'm willing to go to the 5 level across nothing, I don't have a 'medium' Unusual 2NT hand. If I had the 5-5 or 6-5 hand that you guys think I should have for this auction, I wouldn't start with 2♦.

I plan to bid 5♣ here, and I expect partner to figure out that I can't have 5 clubs for this auction unless I also have 7 diamonds. If he passes and they double, he'll wake up in a hurry.

Yes, you are right, sometimes diamonds are better when we're 1-4 in the minors. And sometimes it will turn out poorly such as your example hand, though that one doesn't scare me (I have confidence that we won't be playing 5♣X, and 5♣ undoubled should be a good result).

But a bid of 5♦ or especially 4NT assumes that the opponents are done bidding. You have a freak-of-nature swan. That implies to me that the auction isn't going to go undisturbed unless you're in trouble.

[mikeh]

jtfanclub, on Apr 18 2008, 09:51 AM, said:

But a bid of 5♦ or especially 4NT assumes that the opponents are done bidding.  You have a freak-of-nature swan.  That implies to me that the auction isn't going to go undisturbed unless you're in trouble.

I cannot understand how and under what circumstances 5♣ is better than (or even as good as) 4N.

Whatever 5♣ may or should mean, one thing is 100% clear: 4N shows clubs with significantly longer diamonds. Since, if we intend to show both suits, this seems to be what we have, I simply don't understand how anyone could argue that 5♣ is superior.

Also, since, as has been accurately pointed out, a 4-4 club fit may well be inferior, by 4 or 5 tricks.. to a 7-1 or 7-2 diamond fit, even 4N seems inappropriate.

As for a fear that the opps will bid again... yes, that may happen, but much of the time, it doesn't. And exactly how 5♣ is a better preparation for that eventuality than is 4N, remains shrouded, deeply, in mystery.

Fear of competition may justify 4N as opposed to 5♦. But it hardly explains 5♣

[jtfanclub]

mikeh, on Apr 18 2008, 10:29 AM, said:

Whatever 5♣ may or should mean, one thing is 100% clear: 4N shows clubs with significantly longer diamonds.

Huh?

Doesn't 4NT simply show an unknown 2-suiter? What would you bid with 6 diamonds and 4 hearts?

If you're right, then certainly 4NT is the right bid. But I thought that 4NT in this auction was not only a two-suiter, but almost always a red one.

[ArtK78]

jtfanclub, on Apr 18 2008, 10:42 AM, said:

mikeh, on Apr 18 2008, 10:29 AM, said:

Whatever 5♣ may or should mean, one thing is 100% clear: 4N shows clubs with significantly longer diamonds.

Huh?

Doesn't 4NT simply show an unknown 2-suiter? What would you bid with 6 diamonds and 4 hearts?

If you're right, then certainly 4NT is the right bid. But I thought that 4NT in this auction was not only a two-suiter, but almost always a red one.

Given that it is clear that North is strong enough to force the bidding to the 5 level, if North had hearts with longer diamonds he would have doubled at his first call. He could always correct clubs to diamonds.

Therefore, the 4NT bid after bidding diamonds MUST show diamonds and clubs, not any two suits.

[jdonn]

jtfanclub, on Apr 18 2008, 10:42 AM, said:

mikeh, on Apr 18 2008, 10:29 AM, said:

Whatever 5♣ may or should mean, one thing is 100% clear: 4N shows clubs with significantly longer diamonds.

Huh?

Doesn't 4NT simply show an unknown 2-suiter? What would you bid with 6 diamonds and 4 hearts?

If you're right, then certainly 4NT is the right bid. But I thought that 4NT in this auction was not only a two-suiter, but almost always a red one.

This argument is a bit off track. The point is if north wants to show clubs he should bid 4NT regardless of whether it shows diamonds and clubs or diamonds and another suit.

[mikeh]

jdonn, on Apr 18 2008, 04:28 PM, said:

jtfanclub, on Apr 18 2008, 10:42 AM, said:

mikeh, on Apr 18 2008, 10:29 AM, said:

Whatever 5♣ may or should mean, one thing is 100% clear: 4N shows clubs with significantly longer diamonds.

Huh?

Doesn't 4NT simply show an unknown 2-suiter? What would you bid with 6 diamonds and 4 hearts?

If you're right, then certainly 4NT is the right bid. But I thought that 4NT in this auction was not only a two-suiter, but almost always a red one.

This argument is a bit off track. The point is if north wants to show clubs he should bid 4NT regardless of whether it shows diamonds and clubs or diamonds and another suit.

agreed

When I said it must show diamonds and clubs, I was being inexact: North MIGHT have diamonds and hearts, but he expects South to bid on the assumption that N has clubs and (much) longer diamonds. So he must be prepared to hear South bid 5♣ on a 1=3 or 1=4 or 2=4 hand in the minors, and my main point was that that is a BAD idea. On the actual hand, of course, it works wonderfully... but that is not the point.

[jtfanclub]

jdonn, on Apr 18 2008, 04:28 PM, said:

This argument is a bit off track. The point is if north wants to show clubs he should bid 4NT regardless of whether it shows diamonds and clubs or diamonds and another suit.

My fear is that if they bid 5♠, partner may have a slam call if the other suit is hearts and want to pass if the other suit is clubs. I think it's reasonable for 2♦ followed by 5♣ (in contrast to starting with 2NT) to show two more diamonds than clubs, and therefore make it the call with the least confusion if they continue.

I will however bow to those those who are far better players than I am. Unquestionably 4NT is better if the next player passes, so perhaps I'm letting my knowledge of the rest of the auction influence my choice of bids.

[neilkaz]

I think east's 6♠ bid is really bad here. First he tells his story with 4♠ in reply to PD's opener. Then he tells it again with 5♠ which is reasonable as he can't really expect the opps to carry onto slam, but they may and he should plan for it when he pushes with 5♠.

But his 6♠ bid is really asking for trouble noting the RHO started with a 2♦ overcall, showed a big minor suit hand with 5♣ and then bid 6♦ all by himself ! Clearly I'd pass and hope to set rather than perhaps being off more than two tricks doubled.

I'd bid 5♠ and then pass and trust that I am not resulting the hand.

[the hog]

2D is good. 5C is a terrible bid, as Mikeh says, the correct bid is clearly 4NT. 6S is very poor as well.

[neilkaz]

The_Hog, on Apr 21 2008, 10:43 PM, said:

2D is good. 5C is a terrible bid, as Mikeh says, the correct bid is clearly 4NT. 6S is very poor as well.

It can be difficult to teach B/I when 4NT is not some type of Blackwood (unless obvious quant NT) and very risky to bid it when playing with them.

But here it is a very fine bid, since how on earth can one start with a simple 2♦ overcall and then want to ask for aces opposite a passed PD ?

Note to B/I and also adv.. when playing with a good PD and facing a bid you don't understand, please try to think and use negative inferences based on what he didn't bid and then if still confused consider the opp's bidding and you become quite likely to figure out what is happening.