[jdeegan]

Scoring: MP

1♦-1♠-Dbl-2♠
P-P-???

---

Playing 2/1 with competent partner against moderate opponents. Partner could have bid either 2NT or 3♥ (good/bad 2NT) to show four ♥. Am I too weak to compete?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

3D, and this answers your question:
No, you are not to weak
But good/bad would also be helpful
in the given seq. to differentiate between
a good and a competive raise to 3D.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mike777]

jdeegan, on Jun 11 2007, 01:29 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

1♦-1♠-Dbl-2♠
P-P-???

---

  Playing 2/1 with competent partner against moderate opponents. Partner could have bid either 2NT or 3♥ (good/bad 2NT) to show four ♥.  Am I too weak to compete?

I pass
Yes I think this is a tough problem..next hand.....
I note partner did not bid 2nt..good bad .......when they could have assuming we play good/bad,....I pass.

[pbleighton]

Partner denies 4 hearts, therefore has 4 diamonds. 3D.

Peter

[foo]

jdeegan, on Jun 11 2007, 01:29 AM, said:

None,MP,
♠Q♥Q9863♦K652♣T97

1♦-(1♠)-Dbl-(2♠)-P-P-??

Playing 2/1 with competent partner against moderate opponents. Partner could have bid either 2NT or 3♥ (good/bad 2NT) to show four ♥.  Am I too weak to compete?

At 1st glance, you have 5 working HCP. At 2nd glance... ... you have 5 working HCP.

Your Negative X with this shape and these values was as pushy as you should be (maybe even too pushy).
You have neither extra shape nor extra values.
Yes, you are too weak to compete. Pass.

Opener could easily be a minimum with
4333, =4342, or 5D332 (although not if you play Support X's),
=4243, =3253,
etc.

If ♠'s have broken badly, Our best chance for a good score could very well be to Defend. In addition, if They have a 9+ card fit, further competition by Us could push Them into bidding a makable 4S that They are going to miss as things stand.

[P_Marlowe]

foo, on Jun 11 2007, 07:47 AM, said:

jdeegan, on Jun 11 2007, 01:29 AM, said:

None,MP,
♠Q♥Q9863♦K652♣T97

1♦-(1♠)-Dbl-(2♠)-P-P-??

Playing 2/1 with competent partner against moderate opponents. Partner could have bid either 2NT or 3♥ (good/bad 2NT) to show four ♥.  Am I too weak to compete?

At 1st glance, you have 5 working HCP. At 2nd glance... ... you have 5 working HCP.

Your Negative X with this shape and these values was as pushy as you should be (maybe even too pushy).
You have neither extra shape nor extra values.
Yes, you are too weak to compete. Pass.

Opener could easily be a minimum with
4333, =4342, or 5D332 (although not if you play Support X's),
=4243, =3253,
etc.

If ♠'s have broken badly, Our best chance for a good score could very well be to Defend. In addition, if They have a 9+ card fit, further competition by Us could push Them into bidding a makable 4S that They are going to miss as things stand.

Although personally I dont care that the scoring
format is MP, i.e. I would bid the same at IMP's,
you do realize, that the best chance to go plus
is to push them higher?

Fearing that they may make 4S, if they already
stopped in 2S should not be the guiding reason
for not bidding.

The only reason for pass is, that partner may take
me more serious (after all I could still hold inv. values).

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: I have 5 working points and a shortage.

[cherdano]

Wow, I can't imagine passing this out at MP.

[Fluffy]

With 1444 I might pass, but I like my hand more now, 3♦ for me

[foo]

For those who think 3D is automatic,

The case where your extra bidding helps them bid a making 4♠ is obvious.


Now the possible partscore disaster. Let's assume MPs as in the OP.

The opponents, having heard of this thing called "The Law" and this thing called "The Matchpoint X" start looking for excuses to penalty X you.

They have a useful agreement something like, "If I have an extra trump for the auction thus far I look for excuses to bid 3♠. If I don't, I start counting likely defensive tricks. If my hand has significantly more defense than usual for this auction, I put the Red Card on the table." If their partner has significantly less defense than normal for this auction, they pull the X. If not, they stand pat.

At the least, this means the opponents are not bidding "3 over 3" without a 9+ card trump fit or significantly higher ODR than normal for the auction most of the time.

At the worst, this means They are going to X with you with ~80-90% accuracy.


Now let's look at your chances in 3D.
Opener's bidding strongly suggests a minimum.
Opener's bidding strongly suggests no extra shape.
You've got 7 HCP, and 2 of them, the ♠Q, rate to be waste paper.
If Opener has 12 HCP, We have 19 HCPs. 2 of them likely wasted.
If Opener has 15 HCP (his absolute maximum for this auction under most circumstances), We have 22 HCP. Again, 2 of them likely wasted.

We rate to be well within the HCP range where "The Law" holds.
...and We are unlikely to have a 9 card D fit here.

[P_Marlowe]

foo, on Jun 11 2007, 09:35 AM, said:

For those who think 3D is automatic,

The case where your extra bidding helps them bid a making 4♠ is obvious.


Now the possible partscore disaster.  Let's assume MPs as in the OP.

The opponents, having heard of this thing called "The Law" and this thing called "The Matchpoint X" start looking for excuses to penalty X you.

<snip>

At the worst, this means They are going to X with you with ~80-90% accuracy.


Now let's look at your chances in 3D.
Opener's bidding strongly suggests a minimum.
Opener's bidding strongly suggests no extra shape.
You've got 7 HCP, and 2 of them, the ♠Q, rate to be waste paper.
If Opener has 12 HCP, We have 19 HCPs.  2 of them likely wasted.
If Opener has 15 HCP (his absolute maximum for this auction under most circumstances), We have 22 HCP.  Again, 2 of them likely wasted.

We rate to be well within the HCP range where "The Law" holds.
...and We are unlikely to have a 9 card D fit here.

#1 First of all: Bidding 3D is the law action, the only
neg. factor being the Queen of spade, which gets
countered by the spade shortage.
Bidding 3 over 2 is following the Law.

#2 Depending on your agreement, what to open
with 4-4 in the Minors, opener will quite often
have a 5 carder

#3 being 5332 ... he will have a weak NT, but being
54 in the minor, is possible, and he could be stronger.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[pbleighton]

Quote

For those who think 3D is automatic,

The case where your extra bidding helps them bid a making 4♠ is obvious.


Now the possible partscore disaster. Let's assume MPs as in the OP.

The opponents, having heard of this thing called "The Law" and this thing called "The Matchpoint X" start looking for excuses to penalty X you.

They have a useful agreement something like, "If I have an extra trump for the auction thus far I look for excuses to bid 3♠. If I don't, I start counting likely defensive tricks. If my hand has significantly more defense than usual for this auction, I put the Red Card on the table." If their partner has significantly less defense than normal for this auction, they pull the X. If not, they stand pat.

At the least, this means the opponents are not bidding "3 over 3" without a 9+ card trump fit or significantly higher ODR than normal for the auction most of the time.

At the worst, this means They are going to X with you with ~80-90% accuracy.


Now let's look at your chances in 3D.
Opener's bidding strongly suggests a minimum.
Opener's bidding strongly suggests no extra shape.
You've got 7 HCP, and 2 of them, the ♠Q, rate to be waste paper.
If Opener has 12 HCP, We have 19 HCPs. 2 of them likely wasted.
If Opener has 15 HCP (his absolute maximum for this auction under most circumstances), We have 22 HCP. Again, 2 of them likely wasted.

We rate to be well within the HCP range where "The Law" holds.
...and We are unlikely to have a 9 card D fit here.

I think *unlikely* is a little strong. Also, a 4441 shape is good news for us.

We may get doubled, and go down, no doubt, though I think you exaggerate the likelihood. If we go down 1, however, it's 100, beating 2S making, and this is matchpoints.

Vulnerable or at imps, I can be cautious at times in partscore competition, but:

Matchpoints + Not Vulnerable + Law = Bid!

Peter

[hrothgar]

jdeegan, on Jun 11 2007, 09:29 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

1♦-1♠-Dbl-2♠
P-P-???

---

Playing 2/1 with competent partner against moderate opponents. Partner could have bid either 2NT or 3♥ (good/bad 2NT) to show four ♥. Am I too weak to compete?

I think that you are worth another bid...

2NT might work better than 3♦

[gwnn]

I voted for X. will pull 3♣ to 3♦.

[skjaeran]

I won't sell out to 2♠ at any form of scoring.
Playing good-bad 2NT, I'd bid 2NT, else 3♦.

[jdeegan]

Scoring: MP

1♦-1♠-Dbl-2♠
P-P-3♦-3♠
P-P-P

---

The full hand should have turned out to be pretty pedestrian. LHO took the easy push to 3♠ and the auction should have proceded as shown. Alas, North found the nullo call of 4♦ (despite spade honors and only four ♦) - passed out for down three (might have been down 4) - -150 vs. -140 in 3♠.

[jdonn]

Absolutely obvious 3♦, promising nothing extra at all. Letting them play 2♠ without even showing support for partner is losing bridge.

[whereagles]

what he said