[Quantumcat]

Dlr:E
NS vul

---

We severely stuffed up this hand tonight. Can you please tell me how the bidding should go?

One thing first, we are real beginners, please remember that with your reply!!

Someone had taught me a few days ago about reverses, jump shifts, and splinters by both opener and responder, so at the start of the session I communicated what I had learnt to my partner, who didn't like it, but I convinced him that I was positive that what I had learnt was correct and he very reluctantly agreed to do what I asked.

I passed, he opened a club, one of my hearts had gotten lost among my diamonds so I said 1S, he thought to himself (this is what he told me afterwards) "hmm, I'd like 3H to be a splinter but from what I understand, that will mean two suited and game forcing, so I'll say 2D" I found my heart, then, "if I say 2H he'll think I have five spades, better not do that, (we don't have 4th suit forcing) I'll give preference to his clubs" so I bid 3C, (I guess we have enough for game with his reverse and I have a heart stop, I should have said 3NT) he said 3H which I alerted as first round control, I said 3S for mine (forgetting to realise we obviously didn't have diamond control) he said 4S (I alerted as 2nd round control), I realised then we didn't have 1st *or* 2nd round control of diamonds (wondered what partner was doing bidding diamonds without the A, K or Q!!). I hurriedly tried to sign off 5C hoping partner wouldn't go 1 down, then he bids 5S, I wonder what the heck could he be asking??? and say 6C, all out.

You are probably laughing your head off right now. But we got doubled and went for either 1400 or 800 (dont remember which ... I forgot lebensohl on another hand and we went for the other penalty)

[hrothgar]

I'd recommend the following auction

P - 1♣
1♥ - 1♠
2♠ - 2N
4♠

[Quantumcat]

What does the 2N show?

[ochinko]

With my regular partner it would go:

P - 1♣
1♥ - 1♠
2♠ - 4♠

2♠ mean responder has four spades, but is minimal - 9 losers.

4♠ mean opener has a 5 loser hand.

[jtfanclub]

Quantumcat, on May 16 2007, 08:57 AM, said:

What does the 2N show?

Just so happens we were discussing this exact auction...

http://forums.bridge...showtopic=19289

If you lost a heart, it should have gone (in my nonexpert opinion)

P 1♣
1♠ 3♠
4♠

Even if Splinter is available, I'm not going to use it. Not strong enough.

[Gerben42]

Quote

I passed, he opened a club, one of my hearts had gotten lost among my diamonds so I said 1S

Can and does happen to the best players, don't panic.

Quote

, he thought to himself (this is what he told me afterwards) "hmm, I'd like 3H to be a splinter but from what I understand, that will mean two suited and game forcing, so I'll say 2D"

Part of the reasoning was okay but instead is better to think like this: Partner has bid Spades, I have Spades so we have a Spade fit. I need to tell partner about it! I have 16 HCP and a singleton in a suit that no one has bid yet (re-evaluate your hand to account for the singleton in the way you have learned).
The conclusion will be: We should be going to game.

Now either you can think of a bid that shows both the singleton and the GF + fit, but if you cannot think of such a bid, that's unfortunate but don't panic and make up a new suit but show partner what you have. A simple bid would be 4♠ then.

Quote

I found my heart, then, "if I say 2H he'll think I have five spades, better not do that, (we don't have 4th suit forcing) I'll give preference to his clubs" so I bid 3C, (I guess we have enough for game with his reverse and I have a heart stop, I should have said 3NT)

I've had some hands where I suddenly realized I had something other than I bid so I can't promise you this one will be your last ...

3♣ is reasonable because partner is supposed to have 5 cards there, BUT... you have only 3 small cards there, a ♥ stop and a balanced hand, so 3NT would probably be best. Still no harm done though.

Quote

he said 3H which I alerted as first round control

Better would be to bid ♠, supporting your ♠ (finally).

Quote

I said 3S for mine (forgetting to realise we obviously didn't have diamond control)

Apparently ♦ were not a problem after all...

Quote

he said 4S (I alerted as 2nd round control), I realised then we didn't have 1st *or* 2nd round control of diamonds (wondered what partner was doing bidding diamonds without the A, K or Q!!). I hurriedly tried to sign off 5C hoping partner wouldn't go 1 down, then he bids 5S, I wonder what the heck could he be asking??? and say 6C, all out.

I don't understand opener at all... 5♠ sounds a bit late to support ♠...

[jtfanclub]

Gerben42, on May 16 2007, 09:20 AM, said:

The conclusion will be: We should be going to game.

I don't think the hand is strong enough. My partners can be *very* weak for that 1♠ bid.

For example
♠ JT53
♥ K87
♦ J872
♣ 54

is sufficient, and 3♠ is going to be tough.

A raise to 3♠ is nice, because you play a 15-17NT (I hope). That means, since opener didn't start with 1NT, he most likely has 15-17 with a singleton. Which is exactly what he does have.

At any rate, there's certainly no reason to play around with other suits. It's a 16 count with no 5 card suits across a passed hand. The experts might have methods of trying for slam, but I sure don't!

[hrothgar]

Quantumcat, on May 16 2007, 04:57 PM, said:

What does the 2N show?

2NT is an artificial advance, asking partner to clarify his Spade length and strength

[Quantumcat]

My partner made me play weak NT with him (which I stuffed up the first time we played, raised him happily to game with my 9 balanced points+3T9's and a T), he had 11 pts). He said he was going to rebid 1NT but didn't because of a bad experience a few hands ago when he had a singleton diamond and said he was balanced, in 3NT down 4. Thanks everyone for your advice.

[jdonn]

It is quite strange that everyone is opening 1♣, 1♦ is the normal opening bid with that shape. It lets you get all three suits in most easily. Like

1♦ 1♥ 1♠ 1NT 2♣
1♦ 1♥ 1♠ 2♠ 3♣

etc. It is crucial on many auctions to get all your suits in to show the short hearts, even when partner has bid hearts, so he can judge where to play.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

p ...... - 1K
1H .... - 1P
2P (1) - 4P (2)

(1) 6-9
(2) you want to play game, you
face a limited partner and the
heart single opposite partners
length is nothing to cheer about

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

jtfanclub, on May 16 2007, 09:32 AM, said:

Gerben42, on May 16 2007, 09:20 AM, said:

The conclusion will be: We should be going to game.

I don't think the hand is strong enough. My partners can be *very* weak for that 1♠ bid.

For example
♠ JT53
♥ K87
♦ J872
♣ 54

fine, but certainly not mainstream.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[ochinko]

jdonn, on May 16 2007, 06:31 PM, said:

It is quite strange that everyone is opening 1♣, 1♦ is the normal opening bid with that shape. It lets you get all three suits in most easily. Like

1♦ 1♥ 1♠ 1NT 2♣
1♦ 1♥ 1♠ 2♠ 3♣

etc. It is crucial on many auctions to get all your suits in to show the short hearts, even when partner has bid hearts, so he can judge where to play.

You are absolute right, of course. I thought of pointing it out, but then promptly forgot.

1♦ - 1NT would deny a four card major, and we wouldn't want to be in NT with a singleton heart, so we can now bid 2♣.

[SoTired]

jdonn, on May 16 2007, 10:31 AM, said:

It is quite strange that everyone is opening 1♣, 1♦ is the normal opening bid with that shape. It lets you get all three suits in most easily. Like

1♦ 1♥ 1♠ 1NT 2♣
1♦ 1♥ 1♠ 2♠ 3♣

etc. It is crucial on many auctions to get all your suits in to show the short hearts, even when partner has bid hearts, so he can judge where to play.

When holding 4=1=4=4, I open 1C rather than 1D. If responder is weak, this gets both minor suits in play. If partner does not respond 1D, we forget the diam suit. If we open 1D, we will likely lose the club suit when responder is weak.

I think both of your sample auctions would bid the same with 5-4-3-1 or 5-4-4. With 4-4-4-1 in the first auction, you should just raise NT and in the 2nd auction, you should bid 3S or 4S.

FYI:
1) Opener's reverse is a one round force (1C 1S 2D) and promises that the first suit is longer than the second suit. Since opener's suits are equal length, opener should not reverse.
2) There is no bid that says, "I made a mistake on a previous bid, this is what I really have." Sorry. You just bid the closest bid you can.
3) Gerben42 has some good analysis, especialy the comment about telling partner immediately about your major suit support.
4) A non-reverse jump shift (like 1D 1S 3C or 1C 1H 2S) is game-force
5) Many play that a reverse jump shift (like 1C 1S 3H) is a mini-splinter showing jump-raise strength. With game-force strength and a singleton, opener would make a double-jump-shift (like 1C 1S 4H).

I believe splinters are too advanced for beginners. Reverses are hard enough to notice and remember. Wait a few months before playing splinters.

[jdonn]

SoTired, on May 16 2007, 10:59 AM, said:

jdonn, on May 16 2007, 10:31 AM, said:

It is quite strange that everyone is opening 1♣, 1♦ is the normal opening bid with that shape. It lets you get all three suits in most easily. Like

1♦ 1♥ 1♠ 1NT 2♣
1♦ 1♥ 1♠ 2♠ 3♣

etc. It is crucial on many auctions to get all your suits in to show the short hearts, even when partner has bid hearts, so he can judge where to play.

When holding 4=1=4=4, I open 1C rather than 1D. If responder is weak, this gets both minor suits in play. If partner does not respond 1D, we forget the diam suit. If we open 1D, we will likely lose the club suit when responder is weak.

I think both of your sample auctions would bid the same with 5-4-3-1 or 5-4-4. With 4-4-4-1 in the first auction, you should just raise NT and in the 2nd auction, you should bid 3S or 4S.

FYI:
1) Opener's reverse is a one round force (1C 1S 2D) and promises that the first suit is longer than the second suit. Since opener's suits are equal length, opener should not reverse.
2) There is no bid that says, "I made a mistake on a previous bid, this is what I really have." Sorry. You just bid the closest bid you can.
3) Gerben42 has some good analysis, especialy the comment about telling partner immediately about your major suit support.
4) A non-reverse jump shift (like 1D 1S 3C or 1C 1H 2S) is game-force
5) Many play that a reverse jump shift (like 1C 1S 3H) is a mini-splinter showing jump-raise strength. With game-force strength and a singleton, opener would make a double-jump-shift (like 1C 1S 4H).

I believe splinters are too advanced for beginners. Reverses are hard enough to notice and remember. Wait a few months before playing splinters.

Your numbered points are good and quite true. But most of what you said before that is really not. The talk about getting both minors into play is something people say a lot, but it's completely a red herring because
1. If partner is weak and we have a club fit, the opponents can make hearts.
2. I intend to bid all three suits anyway on most low level auctions, as I showed.
3. If partner responds 1NT to my minor suit opening I don't want to stay there since he has three hearts at most opposite my singleton. So I need to have a rebid in the other minor.

The auctions I gave would indeed be the same with 544 shapes, but not 5431s. And you are wrong about the correctness of just raising notrump or spades, in both cases. It prevents partner from making an accurate decision. His hearts could be xxxx or KQJxx, so he really wants to know if you are short or not. And particularly in the notrump case, we could simply belong in clubs. Partner could easily have five clubs for his 1NT bid, with shapes like 2425 or 3415. If his hearts are weak in those shapes, clubs should be a lot better than notrump.

Just raising partner instead of completing our description is setting him up to fail since he lacks information he could really use, and it's a completely anti partnership thing to do.

[neilkaz]

That fact that you lost a ♥ and bid 1♠ doesn't take away from your PD's bad error in failing to support ♠ when you've found at least a 44 fit.

PD's only decision after your 1♠ should be whether to jump to game or splinter and force game while showing a stiff or void, or whether to just invite game with his 19 support points.

I slightly prefer to just bid 3♠ but if my 4 of ♠ were the 10 I might stretch just a bit and splinter, since for me a direct jump to 4♠ would imply that I couldn't splinter.

.. neilkaz ..

[mikeh]

Let me add my two cents worth:

Open 1♦.

The argument that opening 1♣ is better is, imo, simply wrong: and I agree with josh on that.

Furthermore, many players eventually agree that they will NOT respond 1♦ on a weak or moderate hand with 4=4 in a major-diamonds... heck, a very large segment of the expert community will bypass even a 5 or 6 card ♦ suit to bid 1Major with a weak hand...

So it is an illusion to think that we are always getting into ♦s.

Moreover, a significant percentage of the expert community will routinely respond 1♦ to a 1♣ opener with 3=3=3=4 shape and the wrong hand to bid 1N or raise clubs: many NA experts and others use 1N there as 8-10, and play inverted minors or otherwise don't raise ♣s on that shape.

That means that opener, with some 3=2=4=4 shape cannot raise diamonds anyway, and with 4=1=4=4, will rebid 1♠ over 1♦... and may not be able to afford to bid 2♦ over 1N or a 2♣ preference by responder... and most would play opener's sequence of 1♣ 1♠ 2♦ (after partner's 1♦ then 1N or 2♣) as substantial extras... maybe we have that here, but what if we were 4=1=4=4 13 count?

So the auction, for me, would be

1♦   1♥
1♠   2♠

then, what opener bids depends on agreements. Given that this is a B/I thread, I think introducing 2N as an artificial bid is a bit beyond what the OP wants or needs. I suspect that it would make more sense, and be more useful advice, to bid either 3♠ as a general try or simply blast game... my advice would be to invite, since the odds are that players who are still at the B/I stage will, as a rule, not declare at an advanced or expert level and should therefore be a trifle conservative... of course, if their opps are the same skill level, then they will likely misdefend

BTW, I don' t think suggesting 1♦ to cater to changes in bidding style with advancing knowledge is too esoteric: it is not as if opening 1♣ with this shaoe makes any real sense even for straight up-the-line bidders, for the reasons set out by Josh, so start bidding these hands 'normally'... which I learned to be 'open the suit below the singleton' in the days when people often played four card majors... and it is still good advice when the singleton is red.