[bid_em_up]

hrothgar, on Mar 21 2007, 08:24 AM, said:

None of these 1NT openings occured in any of my regular partnerships.......

However, in each case, I only made one offshape 1NT opening with each partner. .

I think these two sentences sum it up well.

In your regular partnerships, it appears that you don't do it. So if you happened to open 1N on a stiff for whatever reason, partner certainly would not be expecting it, and you probably wouldn't do it again for another 500-1000 hands or more, if ever again.

In the other cases, you were playing with different partners each time, so none of the individual partners could be aware of the fact that you had done this with the others. So if we assumed that you played 12 boards (one 12 bd tourny) with each of the eight different players giving a ratio of 8/96 or approximately 8%. While this is a high percentage for the norm, the fact that you were playing with different people precludes each of them from being aware that you might have a singleton on your NT opening bid. Partner will be as clueless about it as the opponents will, so there is no problem.

Additionally, when you do open 1N with a stiff, it is quite likely that you are able to give some rational explanation as to why you chose this bid, and what rebid problems that you anticipated having in the subsequent auction to justify the opening.

[jillybean]

bid_em_up, on Mar 21 2007, 06:53 AM, said:

Additionally, when you do open 1N with a stiff, it is quite likely that you are able to give some rational explanation as to why you chose this bid, and what rebid problems that you anticipated having in the subsequent auction to justify the opening.

This comment is either off topic and misleading or not accurate.
I do not need a rational explanation to make a bid, my opps may not like it and my partner may never play with me again but I can bid what ever takes my fancy at the time.

bid_em_up, on Mar 21 2007, 06:53 AM, said:

A 10% ratio is high enough such that any partner that you have played with on a regular basis (and I have no idea of how many partners that might be) could be aware of your tendency to open 1N with a stiff, even though you have no such actual agreement to do so.

So this makes it ok for Richard to open 1nt with a stiff 12.9% of the time with random partners but its not ok for me to open <10% with unknown #partners?

[jtfanclub]

jillybean2, on Mar 21 2007, 09:20 AM, said:

So this makes it ok for Richard to open 1nt with a stiff 12.9% of the time with random partners but its not ok for me to open <10% with unknown #partners?

I have a suspicion, just a suspicion, mind you. This applies to Richard, not to Kathryn.

I think one of the reasons why the ACBL is so hardass about 1NT openers with shortness is because the followups that most people play have the 1NT opener end up as declarer. Therefore, when you have a pro and a client playing together, it's of enormous temptation for the pro to open NT on anything that vaguely resembles a NT opener, and for the client to take the 1NT opener out of their bidding box.

When I was 12, and playing at the game in my local Senior Citizens center, we ended up with an odd number once. After calling around, my partner turned out to be one of the best people in the region, who normally didn't play in petty stuff like this but somehow got talked into it. Well, I screwed up the play early on, and figured out that my partner was a whole lot better then me, so I started directing every hand every hand her way. I didn't open 1NT, and if she bid NT along the way that's where we were going to end up playing it.

At the end of the night, after the last hand was played, she didn't even bother putting her hand back in the board. "Three no trump! Three no trump! All you ever say is three no trump!" she yelled, and stormed out of the room.

She never found out we had a 73% game.

I don't know Richard, and I haven't played with him that I know of. If I'm insulting him by saying this, then I apologize in advance. But I can't help but wonder, when he's playing these hands with unfamiliar partners, if a little voice in his subconscious isn't saying "If I open this 1NT, I'll get to declare, and I'm more confident in my play than my partner's". I think it's that sort of thing, conscious or unconscious, that the ACBL is trying to avoid.

You're not playing by ACBL rules, and you're certainly not bound by them. But the ACBL would take a very dim view of frequently opening 1NT with a singleton even in an indy- it's not a question of partnership agreement. And frankly, any location should take a dim view of one person having the 'tendency' to open over half their hands with a singleton, no six card suit and the right range 1NT, and their partner never doing so. At some point, it really does stop being a tendency, and starts being two different systems.

[cherdano]

Let's assume for a moment that we are outside a sponsoring organization that has precise rules about when a 1N bid is alertable.

I really don't understand why a 1N opening that could possibly have a singleton should be an alertable treatment (even assuming there is a partnership understanding about it). For me that is just a style issue, and I just don't think we can expect alerts for non-standard styles as long as the bid in question is still entirely natural.
Asking Jilly to alert her 1N openers is to me the same as MikeH asking for alerts of possibly light 1m-1x responses, or some of my German bridge fellows asking for an alert of 1m - 1H - 2H if it could be based on 3 card support. In all cases, the only reason for the alert is a non-mainstream style (in the last case not mainstream German style), but alerts are for artificial bids, not for style issues. Otherwise, the folks for whom a w2 opener still denies a side 4 card major would have to alert their bid (unless we find out that this style is still the majority style, in which case those for whom it does not deny a 4card major would have to alert them).

Arend

[jillybean]

..

[bid_em_up]

jillybean2, on Mar 21 2007, 09:20 AM, said:

bid_em_up, on Mar 21 2007, 06:53 AM, said:

Additionally, when you do open 1N with a stiff, it is quite likely that you are able to give some rational explanation as to why you chose this bid, and what rebid problems that you anticipated having in the subsequent auction to justify the opening.

This comment is either off topic and misleading or not accurate.
I do not need a rational explanation to make a bid, my opps may not like it and my partner may never play with me again but I can bid what ever takes my fancy at the time.

bid_em_up, on Mar 21 2007, 06:53 AM, said:

A 10% ratio is high enough such that any partner that you have played with on a regular basis (and I have no idea of how many partners that might be) could be aware of your tendency to open 1N with a stiff, even though you have no such actual agreement to do so.

So this makes it ok for Richard to open 1nt with a stiff 12.9% of the time with random partners but its not ok for me to open <10% with unknown #partners?

You seem to be missing the point.

Of course you can make whatever bid happens to "take your fancy" at the time. However, any competent director will begin to rule against you when you continue to do this if they are aware of the fact, unless you can cite some reasonable explanation for the bid (which you can't, other than "thats what I felt like bidding").

And evidently, your flights of fancy are frequent enough that either 1) your partners wont play with you again (since you keep suggesting such), or 2) they do play with you again and are now aware of your little adventures into the stratosphere. In the first case, it doesnt matter what you do, as you will never be playing with this person again, in the second case it is now somewhat of an implied partnership agreement.

There is a big difference between Richard doing it 12% of the time with random partners (and only once with each partner) and you doing it 10% of the time with x number of unknown partners. I read the latter as saying "I cant tell you how many people I have done this with or who I do it with", but you acknowledge that you do it on a regular basis, and I must "assume" that at least occasionally, you play with a partner that you have played with before. Any partner you have played with before is likely to be aware of your tendency to have these trips into the cosmos.

If instead, you mean that you do this but every time it is with a different partner, then there is no problem as your partner will be just as unaware of your tendency to do it as the opponents are.

A second note, I must infer that you are assuming Richard did it 12% of the time (1 time each/8 different partners) which is not a valid calculation. In his case it is not listed as 14/147 times that he actually opened 1N. If he opened 1N three times with each partner, his actual frequency of occurence is 1/3 with each partner, for 33%. While this is indeed high, each partner is totally unaware of his tendency to do this. If he continued to do it at this rate, with the same players, then, yes, there is a problem.....unless he can show that there is a valid rebid problem on the hand.

Your ratio, as provided, is 14 times out of 147 times that you have opened 1N. That is 10% of the time you open 1N, which clearly is higher than most people would expect. If you are always playing with different partners, then there is no problem. If you are playing with the same one, then yes, there is.

[jtfanclub]

bid_em_up, on Mar 21 2007, 10:38 AM, said:

There is a big difference between Richard doing it 12% of the time with random partners (and only once with each partner)

What Richard said was:

Quote

Ben ran a BRBR study for me suggesting that (roughly) 12.9% of my 1NT openings have contained a singleton.

Not just those with random partner. Which means, if he never does it with regular partners, it's some ridiculously high % with random partners.

[Al_U_Card]

One of the aspects of enjoying the game is winning....just not at any cost. Fooling the opps with unexpected meanings for bids that are "generally" understood to be a certain way, is why alerts were invented. Divulge and relax. If you alert, only your pard will have a potential complaint about system or masterminding or whatever so wtp?

[bid_em_up]

jtfanclub, on Mar 21 2007, 10:44 AM, said:

Quote

Ben ran a BRBR study for me suggesting that (roughly) 12.9% of my 1NT openings have contained a singleton.

Not just those with random partner. Which means, if he never does it with regular partners, it's some ridiculously high % with random partners.

I must have missed this part.

[jillybean]

I can't give you the number of partners involved as I dont have that information yet.

My rationale for opening this hand 1nt was I thought we had been missing obvious games, I wanted to force the auction a little higher and I wanted to declare. You may well think this is a flight of fancy and you are welcome to your opinion but it has nothing to do with the question here.

[bid_em_up]

jillybean2, on Mar 21 2007, 11:09 AM, said:

You may well think this is a flight of fancy and you are welcome to your opinion but it has nothing to do with the question here.

Katherine, "flight of fancy" is a reference to your own comment of "but I can bid what ever takes my fancy at the time" stated by you in your own post.

In context, the phrase "flights of fancy" means your excursions into making bids of this nature just because you "fancy" the bid, so is completely relevant here.

[cherdano]

bid_em_up, can we stop the personal part of this thread please?

[bid_em_up]

cherdano, on Mar 21 2007, 11:29 AM, said:

bid_em_up, can we stop the personal part of this thread please?

Huh?

[jtfanclub]

Jlall, on Mar 21 2007, 11:46 AM, said:

It wouldn't matter if 100 % of richards 1N openers contain a stiff if he plays with a new partner every time he opens 1N that doesn't know about this tendency.

Really? So I can....

-knowingly fill out an improper convention card,
-play a system different from my partner's, and possibly,
-play a system banned by the sponsoring organization

as long as my partner is sufficiently ignorant?

Don't you think at some point this stops being a 'psyche' and starts becoming blatant dishonesty? You're not allowed to fill out a card claiming that 1NT is balanced when you know that you always open 1NT with unbalanced hands, even if you haven't told partner that.

This whole concept that 'if I lie to my partner when I set up the CC, I can lie to the opponents' destroys bridge. Weren't you the one arguing against 2♥ being a weak 2 in either major? But are you now arguing it's OK for me to open all of my 2♠ openers with 2♥, as long as my partner can plausibly argue that he had no idea whatsoever that I would ever do such a horrible thing?

If I only open 1NT with a stiff, that I forgot to tell partner this is no excuse.

[cherdano]

bid_em_up, on Mar 21 2007, 11:20 AM, said:

cherdano, on Mar 21 2007, 11:29 AM, said:

bid_em_up, can we stop the personal part of this thread please?

Huh?

Well, maybe "personal" was saying too much, but maybe it escaped your attention that I wasn't the only one getting obviously annoyed about this thread. Adding to this, you brought up a lot of incriminating questions that don't anything have to do with the actual question (rationale for the bid etc.).

[sceptic]

Yes maybe ur right JT

[jtfanclub]

Since this thread started I have played in one of her tourneys:

She did not demand system/carding at the start of each round.
She did alert her 1NT opening bid as could be singleton (it wasn't this time).

(other comments deleted)

[Al_U_Card]

Even tho the law allows you to argue the point in your own defense, the idea of fair play seems clearly to not want to "lawyer up" but rather to confess and absolve.

[jillybean]

This is not about confessing, that’s something I’m not reluctant to do. It is all about fair play.

I do not have an agreement to open 1nt/singleton with this partner. Further to that I’m saying we have not discussed a strategy to open 1nt with a singleton and that my partner will expect a balanced 15-17 hand. I asked him specifically does he think I could have a singleton when I open 1nt and he replied in the negative.
I simply don’t believe I should alert this bid.

For those of you who have regular partners and discuss strategy, systems and review hands may find it incredulous and hard to believe, we a play a basic system and discuss very little except perhaps a passing comment about the previous board.

edit: unfortunately the only in depth discussion of systems I have is on here or with my teacher - who also does not suggest I open hands like this 1nt