[FrancesHinden]

This hand came up in another thread in the BI forum, but I thought it an interesting problem:

1♦ P 1♥ 1♠
2♣ P ?

---

[whereagles]

Hey, where's my 4♥ choice?

Actually, since RHO didn't raise spades there's a good chance pard has some spade length/wastage and a singleton heart. In those circumstances, 3♥ seems enough.

[jtfanclub]

FrancesHinden, on Mar 14 2007, 09:22 AM, said:

This hand came up in another thread in the BI forum, but I thought it an interesting problem:

1♦ P 1♥ 1♠
2♣ P ?

---

LHO said 1♠ in sandwich position, RHO couldn't raise. I have 1 spade, which leave several spades unaccounted for. Partner has clubs and diamonds, and with those spades, that doesn't leave any room for hearts.

I think my partner has a 3-1-4-5 minimum, and that leaves too many losers for 4♥ or 5♦. I'll bid 3♦, trusting that if partner doesn't have a minimum, he'll bid on.

Edited to add- assuming this is IMPs, so 3♦+1 and 3♥= are the same result. In MPs, I'd change my vote to the major.

[Fluffy]

We need very little from partner to have a playable game in hearts (♦AQJ is enough), so I would try 4♥ at IMPs, at MP 3♥ is enough.

[FrancesHinden]

whereagles, on Mar 14 2007, 02:38 PM, said:

Hey, where's my 4♥ choice?

Lump it in with 3H (forcing)

[bid_em_up]

Fluffy, on Mar 14 2007, 10:06 AM, said:

We need very little from partner to have a playable game in hearts (♦AQJ is enough), so I would try 4♥ at IMPs, at MP 3♥ is enough.

So you automatically shut out any possible chance of reaching 6D?

[jtfanclub]

bid_em_up, on Mar 14 2007, 10:24 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Mar 14 2007, 10:06 AM, said:

We need very little from partner to have a playable game in hearts (♦AQJ is enough), so I would try 4♥ at IMPs, at MP 3♥ is enough.

So you automatically shut out any possible chance of reaching 6D?

Funny hand, innit? It's entirely possible to set up partner's hand so that you go down at 3 or make 7.

[bid_em_up]

FrancesHinden, on Mar 14 2007, 09:22 AM, said:

This hand came up in another thread in the BI forum, but I thought it an interesting problem:

1♦ P 1♥ 1♠
2♣ P ?

---

My answer is somewhat dependent upon methods agreed/allowed.

I think partner is quite likely to be either 3-1-5-4 or 4-0-5-4. In my particular methods, I know that partner holds 5+ diamonds and 4+ clubs, since we open 1C when 4-4 in minors or when 4 diamonds and 5 clubs. The 1D bid followed by 2C guarantees longer diamonds than clubs. With this agreement, I am not ready to rule out 6D yet, and I am not sure what game is best at this point or if we need to be in game at all. It could be 3N, it could be 4H, it could be 5D or it is entirely possible that we need to stop in 4D.

The only call that flexibly creates a forcing auction that asks partner to further describe his hand is 2S. If partner does not bid 2N, I will seriously consider 6D (as he has no wasted values in spades, and no values in hearts). If he bids 3C, I will show the diamond support via 3D (still forcing after 2S). If he bids 3D, I will bid 3H (again, still forcing and implies 6 good hearts). With no wasted spade values, I will not stop below game, either in hearts or diamonds. Diamonds is probably the best choice, as 5-4 fits usually play better than 6-0 or 6-1 fits.

If partner bids 2N showing wasted spade values, I will bid 3D to show the support and decide where to go after hearing his next call.

If, my methods do not promise longer diamonds than clubs (partner can have 4 diamonds and 5 clubs, or he can still have 5+ diamonds and 4 clubs), the problem is more difficult. While I am not quite as eager to drive to game just yet, I still want partner to give me more information about his hand. 2S is still the only call that allows me to elicit further description of his hand, without "seemingly" committing us to any particular strain (as a 3H bid, or a 3D bid might do). The principle here is to get a better idea of what partner's hand actually contains.

You know he has no points in hearts (other than maybe the J). You want to know, does he have wasted points in spades? Can he possibly have 2 or 3 hearts? Does he have 5 clubs and 4 diamonds? or does he have 5 diamonds and 4 clubs? All of this will help you to decide what action to take next and the only way to find out is via 2S.

[bid_em_up]

jtfanclub, on Mar 14 2007, 10:36 AM, said:

bid_em_up, on Mar 14 2007, 10:24 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Mar 14 2007, 10:06 AM, said:

We need very little from partner to have a playable game in hearts (♦AQJ is enough), so I would try 4♥ at IMPs, at MP 3♥ is enough.

So you automatically shut out any possible chance of reaching 6D?

Funny hand, innit? It's entirely possible to set up partner's hand so that you go down at 3 or make 7.

I really don't mean to argue with you all the time.

Your choice of 3D is a much better call than either 3H or 4H (both of which are terrible bids, imo). At least you have a known diamond fit, 3H is quite likely to be passed by partner on his minimum holding with a stiff heart when 5D/6D are cold, and 4 hearts is probably down when partner happens to be 4-0-(5-4) or 3-0-5-5, and even some 3-1-4-5's.

Rebidding some number of hearts is simply too unilateral of a bid when it is readily apparent that there is a possible alternative strain to play in, imo. Bidding 3D at least lets partner in on the diamond fit part of the hand. But it is not as flexible as 2S, as you do not get to find out (via partners bid or non-bid of 2N) whether or not there are wasted spade values in his hand.

[jtfanclub]

bid_em_up, on Mar 14 2007, 11:07 AM, said:

it is not as flexible as 2S, as you do not get to find out (via partners bid or non-bid of 2N) whether or not there are wasted spade values in his hand.

"2S (cue/Fourth suit FG)"

That 'G' bothers me. You could probably talk me into bidding 2♠ without the G.

[mikeh]

I like bid em up's comments. I open 1♦ with 4=4 in the minors, but I open 1♣ with almost all 4=5 hands.... Jxx x AKQJ Jxxxx would be an exception, but few hands with less disparity in suit strength would qualify for 1♦ with 4=5.

And, while I do not consider that 2♣ should show extra values, in terms of hcp, it does show a reason to bid. With Qxx xx AQxx KJxx, I'd use the magic word: pass.

So, I agree with bidemup that we should be thinking in terms of flexibility here: we do not as yet have much idea as to our final destination: it will be a red suit, but which one and at what level remains unknown.

We have a choice: we can give information or we can ask for information.

I think that we are slightly ahead of the game if we ask for information here.

The problem with giving info is that we are unable to conveniently describe the hand. If we bid 3♥, which is an accurate description of the hand for ♥s, we can never describe the ♦ holding, which may be critical: imagine Axx x AKxxx AQxx: not an impossible holding for partner.

If we bid some number of ♦s, we will almost never play in ♥s.

So I opt for the slight overbid of 2♠. While we may end up too high, we will always find the right strain, and, when it is close, it is usually better to be in the right strain one level too high than at the right level but in the wrong strain. I agree with bidemup's followups, altho I would not ever bid 6♦ unilaterally (and I don't think that he necessarily meant he would jump to 6♦ over 3♦... what would partner do with Jx x KQJxxx AKJx?).

[Edmunte1]

I fully agree with Mike. 2♠, trying to find the right strain. The plan is to bid afterwards 3♦ then 4♥

[FrancesHinden]

jtfanclub, on Mar 14 2007, 04:21 PM, said:

bid_em_up, on Mar 14 2007, 11:07 AM, said:

it is not as flexible as 2S, as you do not get to find out (via partners bid or non-bid of 2N) whether or not there are wasted spade values in his hand.

"2S (cue/Fourth suit FG)"

That 'G' bothers me. You could probably talk me into bidding 2♠ without the G.

The thing is, it's going to be FG in practice, even if you don't play it as FG in theory: you aren't going to pass 2NT/3C from partner, and bidding 2S and following it up with 3red suit is definitely forcing (to invite, you'd hav bid 3D/3H last round).

If partner rebids 3D/3H over a non-FG 2S I suppose you might argue you'd pass - but I bet you wouldn't.

[jtfanclub]

FrancesHinden, on Mar 14 2007, 12:27 PM, said:

If partner rebids 3D/3H over a non-FG 2S I suppose you might argue you'd pass - but I bet you wouldn't.

I was thinking of:

1♦ (P) 1♥ (1♠)
2♣ (P) 2♠ (P)
3♣ (P) 3♥ (P)
3♠ (P) 4♦ (P)
(P) (P)

3♠ is seeking a stopper, of course. Maybe that's not forcing even in a FG auction.

[bid_em_up]

mikeh, on Mar 14 2007, 11:36 AM, said:

I agree with bidemup's followups, altho I would not ever bid 6♦ unilaterally (and I don't think that he necessarily meant he would jump to 6♦ over 3♦... what would partner do with Jx x KQJxxx AKJx?).

No, I simply meant that if partner cannot bid 2N over 2S that I will begin to investigate 6D as 5D should be safe opposite no wasted spade values in partners hand, and we know he has no values in hearts, and 6 has definite possibilities opposite many opening hands of this nature.

Not that I would bid 6D directly.

[temp3600]

2♠, a slight overbid as others have said. I hope to be better placed to choose between 3NT, 4♥ and 5♦, depending on the form of scoring.
Note : I play that opener showed 5+ diamonds and 4+ clubs.

[mike777]

2s

1)Again it seems too tough to stop at 4 of a minor after 2 spades, makes bidding really tough.


2) Can pard have 4d and 5clubs, sure.

3) But I think at most 2H.

[bid_em_up]

jtfanclub, on Mar 14 2007, 12:32 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Mar 14 2007, 12:27 PM, said:

If partner rebids 3D/3H over a non-FG 2S I suppose you might argue you'd pass - but I bet you wouldn't.

I was thinking of:

1♦ (P) 1♥ (1♠)
2♣ (P) 2♠ (P)
3♣ (P) 3♥ (P)
3♠ (P) 4♦ (P)
(P) (P)

3♠ is seeking a stopper, of course. Maybe that's not forcing even in a FG auction.

In this sequence, partner should be 5-5 in the minors and again have very little wasted spade values. I would bid 5D in this sequence (not 4). If he had real values in spades, he would bid 3N over 3H. Not to mention that 4D could simply be a forced preference on a hand like 3-6-2-2 and comes nowhere close to showing the huge diamond fit you have.

In principle, the 2S bid is simply forcing, asking partner to further describe his hand. I tend not to consider it as a 100% game force, since at this point in the auction, you have no other forcing call available to you (see next paragraph). Its main purpose at this point should be to say "partner, please describe your hand further". You may or may not be able to stop below game (most likely not) but as Mike says, at least if you are there, you will be in the correct strain.

Your partner has bid diamonds and clubs, you have bid hearts. The opponents have bid (but not raised) spades. If you simply 3D or 3H at this point (after 2C), they are invitational only, and provide your partner with no real information regarding your hand that allows him to make any rational decision. 4H obviously commits your side to playing there. By asking partner for more info, at least you get to hear what he has to say before having to make a decision on how to progress.

[Apollo81]

my choice would be 3♥

I don't think I am going to get that much help from 2♠, and I want to leave a non-game contract as a possibility. I think it is extremely optimistic to find partner with even 2 hearts on this auction.

[Codo]

I voted 3 ♥ but after reading the posts I think that that was a massive underbid.

I have at least 5 tricks for my pd in 5 Diamond, 3 Top HEarts and 2 Spade ruffs and quite good chances to make more Heart tricks. I control both majors.

I have at least 3 Heart tricks in 3 NT and maybe more if he has as little as xx.
I have 4 Diamonds to make his 5 card suit running.

So I regret that I missed the 2 ♠ GF bid.