[kenrexford]

Jlall, on Mar 1 2007, 04:08 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Mar 1 2007, 02:14 PM, said:

So, for instance, I would bid 2♥ after 1♦-P-1NT-P-2♦-P-2♥ with a COV in hearts, diamond support, and constructive values.

That is actually normal (since you can't have heart length on this auction).

Thank God! I thought I was losing it when I was told that this was too esoteric. LOL

[pclayton]

jtfanclub, on Mar 1 2007, 10:43 AM, said:

I wouldn't mind being there if the red suits are reversed in opener...though that's because of wonderful spots in clubs.

Its a better game with the ♣9, but its far from being "good".

---

Lets assume we get one red suit honor on, and one off. To be nice, we'll assume spades split and club honors are split.

1. Heart King on - Diamond ace off. Assume a heart lead. We hook Q, play a club to the 9, losing to KQing. Heart comes back - yuk. Now we have to hook the spade 10 for the extra entry.

A club lead solves all problems, and a spade lead is probably OK too.

2. Diamond Ace on, heart king off. Again, heart lead, hooking and losing. Diamond shift = -1.

[glen]

pclayton, on Mar 1 2007, 01:09 PM, said:

Can you come up with a plausible sequence to get to the excellent 4♠.

First a long story (okay long paragraph): I played something with sombody for a couple of years, he then played it with his new partner, who then played it with his new partner, and then that player played it with her husband, who now plays it with his partner, last used in last year's Canadian National Finals. I don't know if it is any good in theory, but results have been good for near a decade with it. The sad part is I don't play it with my wife at this time, so the only thing that happens is I lose to it now.

It is 2♥ and 2♠ openings as 10-13 (some play it as 10-14 but good 14s don't count, and one player is trying out 10-13 2♦ openings) - Apollo81 and awm mentioned these above, one as intermediate twos. Now maybe these openings destroy partnerships based on the track records.

However on this hand it goes 1♠-1NT--2♠-move.

One key thing my first partner playing this invented was that 2M-3♣/3♦ was forcing and either long suit, or values there + invite in M: this helped us a lot in getting to games or staying out of games. I've always wondered if after 1♠-1NT--2♠ in standard 2/1, if 2NT should be a puppet to 3♣ or something, and 3♣/♦ forcing with a game try.

[HeartA]

Jlall, on Mar 1 2007, 01:11 PM, said:

completely normal.

"Normal"?, maybe? "completely? maybe not. Both sides unberbid a little, especially West.

I am going to assign blames for the missing game, opener (East) 10%, responder, 50%, 40% due to cards lie perfectly. I would raise to 3S as west.

The reasonable sequence would be
1S - 1N - 2S -3S- 4S.

[cherdano]

jtfanclub, on Mar 1 2007, 12:43 PM, said:

Looks to me like the only way for you to get there is for responder to upgrade his hand to 10 hcp. Seems pushy.

-- 1♠
1NT 2♠
3♥ 4♠

Assuming the 1NT denies a GF hand with 4 hearts.

You have to assume a lot more... Without discussion in 2/1, 3♥ shows lots of hearts, 6-11 pts. It gets a little better if you have discussed 1♠-3♥ and (wisely) decided that it is natural, either weak or invitational. Then 3♥ still shows lots of hearts, and the other range. But it's not a game try for spades.

[jdonn]

HeartA, on Mar 1 2007, 10:44 PM, said:

Jlall, on Mar 1 2007, 01:11 PM, said:

completely normal.

"Normal"?, maybe? "completely? maybe not. Both sides unberbid a little, especially West.

I am going to assign blames for the missing game, opener (East) 10%, responder, 50%, 40% due to cards lie perfectly. I would raise to 3S as west.

The reasonable sequence would be
1S - 1N - 2S -3S- 4S.

Neither side underbid, they were both simply complete maximums that also happened to fit perfectly. It seems anyone who is a maximum for his bid gets chastised these days.

Whose fault would it be if west didn't have the club jack or spade ten?

[FrancesHinden]

Vulnerable at imps I would probably be in it, because I have a method for East to show a "good" 2S bid (typically 14-17 HCP with 6 spades), which East is easily worth with such good controls.

1S - 1NT
2C* - 2S**
3S/4S - 4S/P

2C = clubs or min balanced or good 2S bid
2S = 7-9 doubleton spade


That will indeed end up with being in game with the red suits reversed, but I'm happy to say that 50% of the time I end in a virtually cold game (the actual hand might make 11 tricks) and 50% of the time I end in a poor but not hopeless game: that equals a greater than 50% chance of making game, so it is worth bidding.

Without playing methods, West might raise 2S to 3S, though it is very aggressive (and depends on your weak 2 style).

[1eyedjack]

I play
1S-1N-2D shows a 6 card Spade suit (may be but need not be particularly good).
Over which 2H by opener is artificial and stronger than 2S, and certainly appropriate on this hand.
Opener is then marginal for action stronger than 2S. If I expect the other table to be swinging then perhaps I should also, but I rarely get these predictions right so tend to ignore that aspect now.

Incidentally, reverse the red suits and as you say 4S is not great. But then you are not a million miles away from 3N. As the cards lie, 3N is not a horrendous contract, although 4S is clearly superior.

[jtfanclub]

Sorry, I was thinking SAYC. For a hand to have a lot of hearts, not have the strength to bid 2♥ over 1♠ but to have enough strength to bid 3♥ over 2♠ seems impossible to me. So logically, 3♥ should be 4 hearts and about 10 hcp, with spade tolerence. A weak hand with no spade tolerence has no business bidding at the 3 level.

But then, I've been wrong before.

[skjaeran]

pclayton, on Mar 1 2007, 01:33 PM, said:

skaeran, on Mar 1 2007, 10:21 AM, said:

In our methods:
P - 1♠ - 1NT - 2♥ - 4♠.
We play transfers after 1♠-1NT. 2♥ shows a good 2♠ rebid.

This is somewhat plausible, however the jump to 4♠ looks a little rich, even though opener shows a max 2♠ call. Note my prior comment about reversing the red suits.

If there was a way responder could make a game try to showed the hands meshed better, I'd put more faith in this idea.

Question: how do you show clubs? Is 1N semi forcing for you too?

The jump to 4♠ is not rich IMO. The 2♥ is sub-minimum here. With a reasonable 10-count we'd "never" stop short of game. The alternative to raising directly to game would be to respond 2NT, showing a maximum 1NT response (10 to a bad 12), but that would normally show short ♠'2.

Currectly new suits by responder is natural. But you might play them as game tries, showing values and doubleton ♠.

1NT in non-forcing in our methods. I know that's unusual playing 2/1, but it's quite normal over here (Norway), although 2/1 is far from what the majority play here.

Showing ♣'s is a little problematic, unless we're 5-5 or have GF values. (We open 1♣ with 5-5 and minimum (11-13/14 bad).) What we do is open some 5-2-2-4 hands 1NT (if in the 14+-17 range) and pass 1NT with weak 5-x-x-4 hands. You might add semi-strong ♠-♣ hands in the 2♥ transfer, but we prefer to keep it pure.

We've had several successes playing this method. Some 6-4 hands with ♠+♦ are problematic playing standard methods, especially at MP. If you've got a little more than minimum, but aren't strong enough to jump to 3♠ over a 1NT response, most are forced to rebid 2♠, since that contract often would be higher scoring than the ♦ partscore. We can transfer to 2♦ and rebid 2♠ if partner accepts the transfer. Recently we bid 1♠-1NT-2♣-3♦-3♠-4♠ in a big tournament. More than half the field played 2♠.

[inquiry]

skaeran's transfers over 1NT might make a lot of sense if you play the 2♥ and 2♠ opening bids the way henri taught me. These 2 bids show the major (5+) and clubs (4+) and a minimum hand. This frees 2♣ rebids as "ritong 2♣", but having transfers available would be another good idea. If you have clubs, you have a goodish hand. Not that I have plans right now to change ritong 2♣ approacht that I use.

The reason I like Ritong 2♣ so much, is that I open, er, extremely lightly. I need such tools to help me distinquish between sound openings (but not rock crushers) and the run of the mill frequent openers.

Playing against Justin yesterday, I am sure I shocked the kibitzers when I passed this hand first seat....

J
Qx
AK9xx
QT98x

This is probably the best hand i have passed in a month of sundays, but I was playing with a pickup partner and didn't want to test his understanding of my willingness to bid on a whim. So I choose to pass and go the unusual 2NT route with this one. Normally for me, this is a clear opener, and would still be without the major suit honors (just the 9 hcp in the minors).