[temp3600]

Suppose you play that 1♠ - 2♠ - 3♣/3♦/♥ is a long-suit game try that can also be used as a slam try. If responder jumps to 4♠ and it was only a game try, all is well, but if opener had a slam try with K10xx or Q10xx in the side-suit, he might be a bit stuck, not knowing if partner has AJx or a small doubleton.

With this in mind, I though about using these answers to 1♠ - 2♠ - 3♣/3♦/3♥ :

4♠ : doubleton in the game-try suit (and maximum)
4♥ : singleton or void
4♦ : honors, but not a great holding. Probably 1 top honor and that's about it. (Axx, Kxx, QJx, Q10x(x))
4♣ : honors, very good holding. 2 top honors or 1 of AK with the J or 10. (K10x(x), AQx, KQx)

4♥, 4♦, 4♣ and 3♠ would be used in a similar way if the major is hearts.


So, what do you think of this?

Do you already have meanings for these bids in your partnership?
Do you think the possible gain when opener has a slam try is worth the information given to the opponents when it was simply a game try?
Do you think the meaning I chose to assign to these bids is sensible, or can be improved?
Also, how do you play an answer below 3M, i.e. 1♠ - 2♠ - 3♣ - 3♦?

Thanks for your time!

[whereagles]

I think long suit game tries are an endless source of trouble if you don't clearly agree with pard what exactly constitutes an accept/reject of it.

In that sense, the idea you're describing certainly is an improvement, regardless of what other merits it might have (which I'm sure it does).

/rant off

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

the alternative, would be that responder tries to
show side values in case he intends to accept.

The downside (but this also aplies to your set
of answers) you give the defence add. information
they can use, and this will more often be the case
than it will be the case that you find a good slam
or avoid a bad one.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[kenrexford]

The structure that I use after this type of GT is for Responder to cuebid if he can accept the game try, with cuebids below three of the agreed major being either cues or further game tries.

3NT after a cue, by either partner, is Serious. The only route to 3NT is through the 2NT GT, or a direct 3NT after the two-level raise perhaps.

This leaves out 3NT directly in response to a long suit game try. If the long suit cannot be raised at the three-level (only a spade-long-suit with hearts agreed is the exception), this call "agrees" the long suit as the new focus suit (for slam consideration) and shows 4-card support. One more trick from the 4-4.

If the strength of the simple raise is constructive (8-11 or so), then 3NT shows 3-4 cover cards (A/K/Q of each interior suit, side Aces). 4♣ is then an asking bid, with Responder bidding four of the original major (or 4♥ after 1♠-P-2♠-P-3♥) with only three covers, slam in the newly-agreed suit with four internal covers, or bids any side King if three covers plus this side King. There are some other responses and options as well, such as with side shortness, a fifth trump in the side suit, etc.

If the simple raise showed less, then change the meaning to 2-3 covers.

With, say, 5431 opposite 3433, 6♥ is virtually laydown if the partnership has the AKQJ of both majors plus the diamond Ace and King, and a missing Jack or two might easily not be fatal. Add in a fifth heart for Responder, and you do not need that diamond King.

In other words, find some manner in your structure to definitely agree the second suit as the "slam focus" suit, with 4-card support, and you will likely gain a lot.

[Al_U_Card]

I always liked using LTC to help determine the accept/reject in a suit try.

0-1 loser accept
2 losers, make a mark-time bid
3+ reject

[pclayton]

I play 2-way game tries.

Responder (to the game try) should always try to cue instead of blasting to game.

[temp3600]

Thanks for your replies.

kenrexford : the comments and structure about switching to the second suit as trump are very interesting, thanks a lot.

[glen]

First, sorry to jump in here late.

Second, avoid jumping after the try, since these tries are often slam tries. To that point, I would suggest that one not make many game tries in a suit, and instead either jump to game (the try will be in trying to make it), or bid a non-descriptive 2NT as a general try - so sequences become like 1♠-2♠--2NT(general try)-4♠(cool). My experience is that by keeping the opponents blind more than offsets not accurately determining if the game is good enough double dummy. I would not use two-way game tries, and would avoid sequences that become too trying, like 1♠-2♠--3♣(try)-3♥(try in return)--?

So 1♠-2♠--3 new suit is usually a slam try. However it can work as a game try too. What is important is to not jump in reply, to keep the bidding space. The key responses are:
3♠: Don't like the try.
3NT: Got enough to accept a game try, and my values are in the other two suits.
Cheapest new suit bid: Artificial, waiting, more than a 3♠ bid. Now opener will cuebid with a slam try.
Raise of game try: If you play the try as natural/semi-natural (instead of help suit), then this is a hand that would accept the try, and has a 4 card or better fit.

[Trinidad]

The fact that my partner might have been making a slam invitation is not a good reason for me to describe my hand further. After all, in 95% of the cases it was just a game invitation. That means it is a reasonable, but borderline game and you are giving the defense a road map.

However, there is a possible compromise. Say that the auction starts:
1♣ - 1♠
2♠ - 3♦

and you want to accept the game invitation. Normally you would have jumped to 4♠. But if you play 4♣ with the meaning: "I am accepting the game try." then your partner still has the four level to explore for slam

In 95% of the cases, he will just bid 4♠, but in the remaining 5%, he will cuebid (or use any other method that you use to investigate slam).

Rik

[glen]

Trinidad, on Mar 4 2007, 12:18 PM, said:

... Say that the auction starts:
1♣ - 1♠
2♠ - 3♦

and you want to accept the game invitation ...

As I noted above I think 3♥ over 3♦ is best used as "accept the try".

Also over 2♠ on this sequence, if 2♠ can be 3 or 4 ♠s (depending on style), then 2NT, the general try, needs to able to sort out between the ♠ lengths, as well as minimum or maximum.

[Winstonm]

Quote

Suppose you play that 1♠ - 2♠ - 3♣/3♦/♥ is a long-suit game try that can also be used as a slam try. If responder jumps to 4♠ and it was only a game try, all is well, but if opener had a slam try with K10xx or Q10xx in the side-suit, he might be a bit stuck, not knowing if partner has AJx or a small doubleton

I think you are confusing two types of game tries, here. One type is long suit (similar to help suit), and what you are looking for is a secondary fit, i.e., high cards in that suit.

The other type of game try is weak suit, and IMO it should be called a non-game try as its puropose is to stay out of bad games. This is where a holding like xx or x is of value.

IMO these are completely different tries and responses are totally different.
As an example of the problem: AKxxx, Ax, K10xxx, x opposite: QJx, Kxxx, x, Kxxxx - a trump lead and continuation kills dummy's effectiveness. Compare this to: QJx, Kxxxx, QJx, xx.

The idea of weak suit game tries is to find cover for losing cards like Jxxx - this is where x and xx are valuable depending on trump length held.

So to use AJx, Kx, xx, and x as all positive answers to a help-suit or long suit game try is mixing apples with oranges, IMO.