[mike777]

Is kickback alertable?
Is exclusion RKC alertable?

I always have, but don't know if that is breaking current rules?

ACBL land

Just asking.

[awm]

mike777, on 2025-July-19, 21:47, said:

Is kickback alertable?
Is exclusion RKC alertable?

I always have, but don't know if that is breaking current rules?

ACBL land

Just asking.

Last I checked the rule was:

1. Alertable if in the first round of the auction or behind screens.
2. Otherwise delayed alert (alert/explain when the auction is over).

The above applies to most artificial bids above 3NT (i.e. splinters, 4♣ gerber, minorwood, etc).

[Cyberyeti]

awm, on 2025-July-20, 06:04, said:

Last I checked the rule was:

1. Alertable if in the first round of the auction or behind screens.
2. Otherwise delayed alert (alert/explain when the auction is over).

The above applies to most artificial bids above 3NT (i.e. splinters, 4♣ gerber, minorwood, etc).

If it's the same as UK most artificial SUIT bids, NT bids above 3N never alerted on first round of auction so 3♣-4N (4♦ would have been KB, 4N is exclusion with a void ♦) is not alertable.

[mike777]

Thanks

[pescetom]

 Cyberyeti, on 2025-July-20, 07:31, said:

If it's the same as UK most artificial SUIT bids, NT bids above 3N never alerted on first round of auction so 3♣-4N (4♦ would have been KB, 4N is exclusion with a void ♦) is not alertable.

Sounds illogical to me.

In WBFland (including Italy) artificial bids (including an artificial NT) are alerted, but not above 3NT except in the first round of bidding (which does necessary coincide with the first round of auction).

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2025-July-20, 10:33, said:

Thanks

Many will wonder what the hell you are doing if you describe bids, or keycard sequences after the auction has ended.

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2025-July-20, 10:55, said:

Sounds illogical to me.

In WBFland (including Italy) artificial bids (including an artificial NT) are alerted, but not above 3NT except in the first round of bidding (which does necessary coincide with the first round of auction).

Too much 1N-4N if partner alerts he's giving a blackwood response, if he doesn't he's bidding a 5 card suit I suspect

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-July-20, 12:16, said:

Too much 1N-4N if partner alerts he's giving a blackwood response, if he doesn't he's bidding a 5 card suit I suspect

What's wrong with alert if not natural with a balanced hand too strong for 3N?
He would have to alert both.

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-July-20, 12:16, said:

Too much 1N-4N if partner alerts he's giving a blackwood response, if he doesn't he's bidding a 5 card suit I suspect

Despicable, but under WBF regulations both would require an alert.

[mike777]

jillybean, on 2025-July-20, 11:40, said:

Many will wonder what the hell you are doing if you describe bids, or keycard sequences after the auction has ended.

If:
1h-4s=long spades but
1H-4nt=old fashion blackwood, not rkc but
1h-2h
4nt=void in spades but
1h=2h
4s=rkc in hearts

hope that was clear but now will not alert any of it

smile

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2025-July-20, 14:39, said:

If:
1h-4s=long spades but
1H-4nt=old fashion blackwood, not rkc but
1h-2h
4nt=void in spades but
1h=2h
4s=rkc in hearts

hope that was clear but now will not alert any of it

smile

I doubt that the opps could convince me there was damage from non alerts in any of those auctions.

Please report back on the reaction you receive when you explain all that at the end of the auction.

smile

[mike777]

Often they just don't ask when I alerted.
Guess from now on no alerts.

[blackshoe]

If you alert what the regulation says to alert, and don't alert what the regulation says not to alert, at least the director should side with you if there's any dispute.

[mycroft]

AWM is functionally correct (the best kind of correct) but technically wrong.

What he meant to say is that Ace asking bids (except 4NT over suits and 4♣ after an Opening NT Sequence) and responses (including responses to the exceptions(*)), along with almost all other Artificial calls, are Alertable - but playing FtF, those Alerts must be Delayed until the end of the Auction (and at that point, explained rather than just "5♣ was Alertable". Well, yes, we know that, what does it mean?)

The reason for the difference? In a Self-Alerting environment like BBO, or behind screens (where you alert both your own and partner's Alertable calls), no Alerts are Delayed, and so these are immediately Alerted (and by preference, explained if online).

(*) Yes, this is true. Really. I know you weren't told this, and I know you don't believe me, and I know it's obscure, but it's true. If you still disagree with me, look in the Alert Procedure and show me where responses to normal Blackwood and Gerber are stated as not being Alertable (as Artificial calls are "Alertable unless stated"). Or look at the examples at the end.

[mike777]

To back up for a minute..in F2F

1. Any and all artificial or unusual bids
Above 3NT, say or alert nothing?
2. After the auction on defense say nothing?
3. On offense after auction say nothing?

[mycroft]

Best to go to the source. It's badly formatted (would be much better with separate thoughts separated), so I've done a hack reformatting. I have not changed any words or ordering.

ACBL Alert Procedure, my reformat and emphasis, but no changes, said:

Delayed Alerts

• In any case where a bid is Alertable, but the bid is:
  • 3NT or higher, and
    
  • the auction is at or beyond opener’s rebid,
  Delay the Alert until the end of the auction.
  
• Additionally, Control Bids should be Alerted at the end of the auction even if they are below 3NT.
  
• Alerts of passes, doubles, and redoubles are not delayed regardless of the level of the auction.
  
• When behind screens or online, do not delay any Alerts.

At the end of the auction:

• both defenders should Alert any Alertable bids by their partners with a Delayed Alert.
  
• The declaring side should explain any Alertable bids where Alerts were delayed.

So:

• Almost all Artificial bids (*) are Alertable. If they are beyond 3NT, and opener's rebid or later, say nothing *until the end of the auction*.
  
  • But note that that's bids. Non-bid calls (Pass, X, XX) that are Alertable (there are very few (**)) are always immediate Alerts.
• On defence, after the final pass and before the opening lead, Alert any delayed Alertable bids (including Control Cuebids, whether they were known to be Control Cuebids at the time or not, even if they were below 3NT). Explain if asked.
  
• On offence, after the final pass and beforethe opening lead, explain any delayed Alertable bids (no need to do the "Alert!" "Of course we want to know now" "Oh, okay,..." dance any more, that was always stupid).

In other words, almost exactly what people don't think they should have to do.

In other other words, "at the end of your slam auction, explain it without being asked." Conversely, "if you don't care during the auction, don't ask about obvious slam auctions. They are required to explain it at the end without being asked." (but, given the givens, you'll probably have to prompt them anyway).

To end this example of these go to 11 pedantry, another quote from the Alert Procedure which should make everything clear (but nobody but me and the Laws Committee has ever read it):

Alert Procedure, examples, Delayed Alerts 1, again reformatted, said:

In the unopposed auction 1H - 2NT; 3D - 4S; 5C - 6H; pass, where:

• 2NT was an Artificial raise of hearts,
  
• 3D showed diamond shortness,
  
• 4S asked for keycards in hearts, and
  
• 5C showed 1 or 4 keycards:

• Alert 2NT and 3D at the time they are bid.
  
• Explain 4S and 5C at the end of the auction.

(*) And rare Natural bids. Because of the odd definition of Natural for the purposes of the Alert and Convention Charts, "Always Alert a Natural bid which also shows Length or values in another suit."
(**) Again, almost always this means "shows values in another specific suit" or "denies values in the doubled suit".