[jillybean]

mikeh, on 2024-October-31, 13:03, said:

Then I see suggestions that 3H shows 7+ hearts. Makes me want to bang my head against the nearest wall. Or that people should open 2C with xxx AKQ10xxx KQJ void. More head-banging looms. Wtf?????

Firstly, my "suggestion" to open 2C on that hand was a Question, not a suggestion. With the hand I was given, I was struggling to come up with a hand that would bid 3H over a generic 2C gf. Players open this type of hand 2C in the games I play, I'm obviously not playing in the World Championships.
1H 2C 3H 7+ , I don't think is a terrible suggestion. We've used up an entire level of bidding, when our hand evaluation gets better we can revisit it on 6 cards.
Better avoiding the bid than misusing it with a bleh 6.

Always good to read your contributions, Mike.

[smerriman]

Ranmit, on 2024-October-31, 14:36, said:

But I suppose the counter argument could be that the 2♥ bid then hardly describes anything? For instance, with the same opener hand, if responder had a minimum hand as in the following, wouldnt he directly bid 4♥ over 2♥, and then opener does not know whether to ask for key cards with the xx in clubs? - Something that could be avoided if 3H is available to show opener's stronger hands?

---

Responder definitely shouldn't be jumping to 4♥ there. Jumping in a forcing auction has to show something very specific, so that opener *does* know when it's right to continue. For me 4♥ would show a minimum with all values in hearts and clubs, no controls outside. Your hand can just raise to 3♥.

[Ranmit]

smerriman, on 2024-October-31, 14:59, said:

For me 4♥ would show a minimum with all values in hearts and clubs, no controls outside. Your hand can just raise to 3♥.

Interesting - thanks!
So that means that the auction 1H 2c 2H 3H does not really convey anything about the strength of either hand, except establishing the game force? IE, they could hypothetically have a min 12+13 or a high 18+20 HCP?

And it is only now, after the suit is established, that strength is shown? (Opener will presumably bid 4H with minimum and cuebid with some slam interest? And responder should cooperate / continue with the control bids, even if with min 13 HCP, since opener could have ~20 pts?)

[pescetom]

Ranmit, on 2024-October-31, 15:23, said:

Interesting - thanks!
So that means that the auction 1H 2c 2H 3H does not really convey anything about the strength of either hand, except establishing the game force? IE, they could hypothetically have a min 12+13 or a high 18+20 HCP?

And it is only now, after the suit is established, that strength is shown? (Opener will presumably bid 4H with minimum and cuebid with some slam interest? And responder should cooperate / continue with the control bids, even if with min 13 HCP, since opener could have ~20 pts?)

Not exactly, and please stop thinking that "points" are only about HCP or even a vital consideration come to that, once we are in a game force with an established trump suit
1H and 2C already spoke clearly about the minimum strength of both hands, 2H limited the opener.
3H says that the (unlimited) Responder still has at least mild interest in slam, otherwise he could have bid 4H as discussed above.
It also invites control-bids.
Now Opener has a chance to show Serious / Non-Serious attitude to slam, and the control-bid sequence will spell out clearly where we lose tricks.
The downside of this approach is not in risk of bidding a hopeless slam due to imprecise strength information, but rather in pinpointing to opps where we will lose tricks, which can be painful especially at MP. I'm happy with it nonetheless.

[mike777]

It can even be a bit more complicated.
Some world champions play all minimums go through 2H to solve the question you ask.

[mw64ahw]

Ranmit, on 2024-October-31, 15:23, said:

Interesting - thanks!
So that means that the auction 1H 2c 2H 3H does not really convey anything about the strength of either hand, except establishing the game force? IE, they could hypothetically have a min 12+13 or a high 18+20 HCP?

And it is only now, after the suit is established, that strength is shown? (Opener will presumably bid 4H with minimum and cuebid with some slam interest? And responder should cooperate / continue with the control bids, even if with min 13 HCP, since opener could have ~20 pts?)

As MikeH points out there are many ways to approach 1M-2♣. For example some put 3-card limit bids through 2♣; in my case the only 3♥ support I put though 2♣ are slam going hands with 5♣ headed by at least a King. This then provides a choice of slams where 3♥ is a slam invite in either suit.

[DavidKok]

Another day, another victim of people playing 2/1 without discussing the continuations.

Mikeh has it right, of course. For me the jump to 3♥ sets trumps. I used to play that it critically denies a solid suit - that hand rebids 3NT (artificial, forcing, sets the opening major as trumps). It doesn't really matter - the hand type is rare anyway, so you don't meaningfully gain by assigning two bids to different shades of it.

What it is decidedly not is any hand with two or one extra hearts and some playing strength but not much else. In general it pays to keep the bidding low and flexible. If you play a style where the 2M rebid can be 6(+) and also can be 5 you would do well to discuss the continuations. Normally responder would strain to rebid 2NT (or 2♠ over 2♥ if appropriate) even on semibalanced hands to keep the bidding low and allow opener to clarify their hand type. If responder instead rebids something else, opener is not invited to bid their 6-card heart suit at the 3-level - the expensive rebid shows a lack of interest in hearing about the sixth piece.
Other continuations exist, but this is one that is somewhat common. In my experience though even more common is to muck about and hope you aren't dealt a seven card suit, and instead just keep rebidding six card suits until partner gets the message.

Statistically speaking it's probably fine - 2/1 GF auctions are only 4% ish of all deals, and most of the time you will have a cheaper rebid (especially on 1♠-2♣). And even then, partner can sometimes guess whether you have a five card suit, or the 6-2 might play well in 3NT. However, from a bidding system point of view, this auction is worth discussing. I posted an overview of 2/1 styles just the other day but now I can't seem to find it anymore.