[Flame]

MP NO ONE IS VUL

3♠ p p X
P ?

XXX
K10XX
KXX
AKX

[mike777]

Flame, on Jul 14 2005, 12:10 AM, said:

MP NO ONE IS VUL

3♠ p p X
P ?

XXX
K10XX
KXX
AKX

4H
partner asked me to takeout, yes?

[the hog]

4H. Wtp?

[helene_t]

4♥. It's not good to make a slam try since partner is protecting exactly because I might have a hand like this. There is no reasson to assume that the 5-level is safe.

"Pass" if I desperately need a swing.

[MickyB]

I don't believe it is sound to balance (as an unpassed hand) over preempts on much less than you would act in direct seat.

Even so, I don't see much alternative to 4♥! Yes we might miss slam, but there's just no other bid to make on the hand.

[flytoox]

Though I would bid 4H as well, I thinnk pass is not a bad option. 3S is certainly down, but not sure we can make 4H. If we can set it 3 tricks, then we can be sured of a good score. Slam? Forget it.

[flytoox]

Looks like LOTT can help us here. OPPs have 8.5 trumps, we have 8 trumps. SO there is total 16.5 tricks. If we can make 4H, then 3S will be down 2.5 tricks. Considering this hand is too balanced, I would expect we can set them 3 tricks.


The more I think of it, the more I believe pass is the right bid.


Correct me if I am wrong.


Hongjun

[MickyB]

Your opps probably have 7 spade tricks regardless of what outside cards you have Flytoox. Give partner a singleton spade and the remaining highcards, you make 6 of a suit and they are only two off in 3♠.

[P_Marlowe]

The_Hog, on Jul 14 2005, 03:43 AM, said:

4H. Wtp?

agree.

Marlowe

[whereagles]

flytoox, on Jul 14 2005, 10:44 AM, said:

Looks like LOTT can help us here. OPPs have 8.5 trumps, we have 8 trumps. SO there is total 16.5 tricks. If we can make 4H, then 3S will be down 2.5 tricks. Considering this hand is too balanced, I would expect we can set them 3 tricks.


The more I think of it, the more I believe pass is the right bid.


Correct me if I am wrong.


Hongjun

The reasoning is sound, but there is something you missed.

You have a rather decent hand, just about as good as it could be for a pass of 3S. This increases the likelyhood of pard's balancing double was done on marginal values (10-11 hcp). With such mearge values, he surely has 4 hearts and quite probably a singleton spade.

This makes a bid of 4H much more attractive, no?

Note that even if pard has only 3 hearts, then he should have a few extras and 4H rates to make even on the 4-3 fit.

[the hog]

"The more I think of it, the more I believe pass is the right bid.
Correct me if I am wrong."

OK you are corrected!

[flytoox]

The_Hog, on Jul 14 2005, 12:35 PM, said:

"The more I think of it, the more I believe pass is the right bid.
Correct me if I am wrong."

OK you are corrected!

Two comments:

1. Please back up your claim with reasoning.

2. I doubt very much your qualification before you learn basic internet social etiquette.

[FrancesHinden]

flytoox, on Jul 14 2005, 05:44 AM, said:

Looks like LOTT can help us here. OPPs have 8.5 trumps, we have 8 trumps. SO there is total 16.5 tricks. If we can make 4H, then 3S will be down 2.5 tricks. Considering this hand is too balanced, I would expect we can set them 3 tricks.


The more I think of it, the more I believe pass is the right bid.


Correct me if I am wrong.


Hongjun

OK, you are wrong.

Let's give the 3S opener a 6 or 7-card suit.

Partner has made a take-out double of spades, so won't have a great deal in the way of spade honours. And any short spade honour partner has will be dropping.
So on average, given our spade holding, I expect them to have 6.5 spade tricks. That's the conclusion you came to.

Now look at it the other way. If they have nothing except their spade suit, then we must have everything outside spades, which means we are making 11, 12 or 13 tricks depending on partner's spade length. Forget the LOTT. If you and your partner have all the high cards outside spades, you have no losers outside spades.

Give them one trick outside spades, and now you get 300 while you were making 10,11 or 12 tricks.

[Flame]

I was surprise to see that only fly thought of passing this hand, i passed it on the same ressons he gave, but by now i understand it was wrong.

[FrancesHinden]

Yeah, well, it could easily be right at matchpoints.

You won't necessarily bid your slam when it's making, and then 500 should be a good score.

But I'd still bid 4H.

It's just too painful otherwise when partner has hand such as
-
AQJxx
xxx
QJxxx

, you make 4H+2 on a dummy reversal and 3Sx was making....with an overtrick....

I'd love to make some sort of try, but "4H with extra values" isn't in my bidding box.

[MickyB]

The question is more interesting if you have one more club and one fewer heart.

[mike777]

edit, miscount hands

[flytoox]

MickyB, on Jul 14 2005, 03:49 PM, said:

The question is more interesting if you have one more club and one fewer heart.

In that case it would be a clear pass.

[FrancesHinden]

In that case it would be very difficult problem.

xxx
K10x
Kxx
AKxx

3S P P x
P ?

If you think that is a "clear pass" your partner had better never, ever double 3S with a void.

[mike777]

edit, miscount hands.