[awm]

Since this seems to come up fairly frequently, I'll present the IMPrecision 1M sequences that Sam and I play(ed). While these are designed for our strong club system, one could play similar methods (with point ranges suitably adjusted) in many other systems as well.

First a note on our 1M openings. These are typically on the "rule of 18" and upper-limited by our 1♣ opening (16+) so we open a lot of hands in the 9-15 range. We are certainly not strict point counters, and will often pass minimums with points in the short suits. There are a few exceptions to our opening style too:

1. With 5332, we pass 10 point hands and open 1NT with 14-16 (or some 13s). This gives a relatively tight range of 11-bad 13.
2. With a six-card major we open a weak two bid with 5-10 points, meaning that our minimum for a one-suited 1M opening is around 11 (6-4 hands have a choice).
3. With a 7+ major, not 7222, and 10-14 or so points we often open 3NT (reverse namyats, showing a good major suit preempt).

In response to 1♠, we raise directly with a fit except on some game-forcing hands. The raises are:

2♠ = normal single raise (not "constructive"), around 6-9 points
2♥ = limit raise (10-12 or so), or a slammish splinter in hearts
3♠ = weak four-card raise
2NT = mixed four-card raise
3NT = minimum splinter in any suit
4♣, 4♦ = slammish splinter in the bid suit
4♠ = to play, can be a good hand but we probably do this less than other strong club pairs

The rest of the responses handle non-fitting hands (or game-forcing hands with fit). They are:

1NT = normally 8-12 points without fit, although it can be lighter if willing to pass any rebid (short spades).
2♣ = any GF (except some fitting minimums) or a sound invite (12-14) with 5+♥
2♦ = any sound invite (12-14) with 0-2♠ and 0-4♥, or a fitting game force that needs max w/right shortness for slam
3♣, 3♦, 3♥ = natural weak jump shift (range is like 0-9 points)
4♥ = to play

Opener passes the 1NT response with 5332 and 11-bad 13, or otherwise makes a natural rebid. If responder then preferences to spades, this shows 8-12 points (mildly forward going) and opener is invited to bid on with 14-15. Other non-pass continuations by responder similarly show values (two of a new suit is like 8-12, three of a new suit is like 10-11 because of the lack of a WJS, 2NT is around 11-12 with shortness in spades and no fit for opener's second suit).

After 1♠-2♣, we use relays when responder has a GF. If responder has the heart invite and wants to possibly get out in a partial, he breaks the relay after opener's rebid. Note that opener's rebids 2♠+ establish a GF in any case. The immediate rebids are:

1♠-2♣:
... 2♦ = 4+♣ or spade one suiter without shortness; includes 5044 but not 5404
... 2♥ = 4+♦, includes 5440
... 2♠ = 6+♠ single-suited and shortness somewhere
... 2NT+ = 4+♥; includes 5404 but not 5440

After 1♠-2♦ (which handles most "sound invites"), our priorities are to find our heart fits and to allow the auction to end at 2♠ when opener is very minimum and responder has doubleton. With this in mind:

1♠-2♦:
... 2♥ = "catch-all"; mostly just denies holding 4+♥ or a few maximums
... 2♠ = 4+♥ but very minimum, NF
... 2NT = 4+♥ and GF
... 3m = 5+ suit and GF
... 3♥ = 6♠+5♥ but very minimum (5/5 bids 2♠)
... 3♠ = 51(34) GF

1♠-2♦-2NT (hearts, GF):
... 3♣ relay to find 5/5, 6/4, or minor suit shape if opener is 5/4
... others natural

1♠-2♦-2♥:
... 2♠ = doubleton invite (2NT by opener is an artificial GF here, 3m by opener is a weak 5/5)
... 2NT = short spades invite without a six-card minor (normally 1435, 1444, 1345, etc)
... 3m = six-card suit natural invite
... 3♠ = GF spade raise that needs max with the right shortness for slam

In response to 1♥, we play almost the same but with almost everything shifted down a step. So our raises are:

2♥ = normal single raise (not "constructive"), around 6-9 points
2♦ = limit raise (10-12 or so)
3♥ = weak four-card raise
2NT = mixed four-card raise
3♠ = minimum splinter in any suit
3NT = slammish spade splinter
4♣, 4♦ = slammish splinter in the bid suit
4♥ = to play, can be a good hand but we probably do this less than other strong club pairs

The rest of the responses:

1♠ = normally 8-12 points without fit, although it can be lighter if willing to pass any natural rebid (short hearts).
1NT = any GF (except some fitting minimums) or a sound invite (12-14) with 5+♠
2♣ = any sound invite (12-14) with 0-2♥ and 0-4♠, or a fitting game force that needs max w/right shortness for slam
2♠, 3♣, 3♦ = natural weak jump shift (range is like 0-9 points)
4♠ = to play

After 1♥-1NT, responder breaks the relay after opener's rebid if not wanting to GF (2♥+ are GF anyway). Opener's rebids:
... 2♣ = diamonds or heart one-suiter with no shortness
... 2♦ = clubs
... 2♥ = heart one suiter with shortness somewhere
... 2♠+ = 4+♠

After 1♥-2♣ (sound invite), we are similarly looking for spade fits and trying to get out in 2♥ with min opposite doubleton:
... 2♦ = "catch-all", mostly just denies 4♠ or some maximums
... 2♥ = 4♠ and 5♥ but very minimum
... 2♠ = 4♠ and GF
... 2NT = 6♥ and GF (3♣ relays for shortness, 3♦/3♥ show clubs and diamonds respectively, 3♠ shows both minors and short ♥).
... 3m = 5+ suit and GF
... 3♥ = 6♥+5♠ and minimum
... 3♠ = 15(34) GF

Perhaps the strangest part of our system is 1♥-1♠; this is like a forcing notrump but could contain any number of spades. We think of this rather like the auction 1♠-1NT (which could contain any number of hearts) and if opponents compete over this we play simple takeout doubles. Opener's rebids are:

...1NT = artificial, showing 3-4♠ (we use this to find spade fits in case responder has 4-5♠)
... 2♣/2♦/2♥ = all natural, although 2♣ can be 2533 precisely
... 2♠ is not a "raise"; it shows 5♥ and a 6+ minor and maximum
... 2NT shows 6♥ and 5♠ (not necessarily extras but forcing one round)
... 3m shows a 6/5 max

If opener rebids 2♣/2♦/2♥ and responder doesn't pass, this again shows 8-12 points (somewhat forward going) or 11-12 points (if 2♠+).

This leaves the auction 1♥-1♠-1NT, where opener has shown 3-4♠. Responder can pass this, but only with a 3145 shape precisely and less than around 11 points. The other continuations are:

... 2♣ = 3154 or 5/5 minors, primarily looking for a landing spot (but opener should raise to 3m with 14-15 and a fit)
... 2♦ = 4+♠ and 8-12 points (looking for the right fit and level)
... 2♥ = doubleton, 8-12 points, not 4♠
... 2♠ = either 5+♠ or 4♠ and singleton heart, not forward-going at all
... 2NT = 3145 or 5/5 minors, 11-12 points or so
... 3m = 6+ suit and 9-11 points

[DavidKok]

Thank you for the post, this is an excellent structure. Putting the invitational hands with 5(+)oM in the relay cleans up a number of other sequences, and the two ways to invite below 2M caters to the weak openings nicely.

[straube]

Thanks Adam. I thought your 2M was 7-11/12 or so. Did you tweak that?

David, I'm glad you appreciate it so much. Did you notice how they are able to open shapely hands light with this? It speaks volumes. I think the reason they can do "double-barreled" is that they are known to have a fifth card in that major and a frequent get-out in 2M. They have an anchor suit and they make full use of it.

1S-1N, 2C-2S promises a doubleton and 8-12. They inch toward game. Opener is unlikely to have 14-15 (compared to 9-13) but knowing that pd has at least 8 (and a doubleton) it is safe and incumbent on him to make a game try.

Similar for 1S-2D*, 2H* and 1S-2D*, 2S* where responder can show 13-14 (I'd remembered 12-13 but oh well) and rest in a 5-2 spade fit. Now most folks aren't capable to open as light as Adam and Sieong can (rule of 18) so let's contrast what they do to a pair opening 10-15 5-cd majors with a semiforcing NT of up to 13 hcps; those folks will have auctions like 1S-1N, 2m. At this point they desire to differentiate responder's wide range of perhaps 7 to 13 so the misfitting 12-13s typically rebid 2N without showing whether they have doubleton support or not while the 7-11s rebid 2S ostensibly showing a doubleton. Opposite the strong invites, Adam and Sieong could be playing 2S with Axxxx xx AJxxx x or possibly even Qxxxxx AJxx Qx x (not sure their style here) while others play 2N.

I think anyone contemplating 4-cd majors (who has the know-how to use relays) should think about whether they can build a structure as strong as this. How do they handle ranges? Inch toward game? I can't see a parallel structure for 4-cd majors.

[mw64ahw]

Presumably if you respond with 8/good 7 rather than 5/6 then a max opener can invite compared to a standard 2/1 where you may be passing?

[awm]

There are a few interesting things we've noticed from years of playing these light openings.

Our single raises put a lot of pressure on opponents, because we could have something like 9 opposite 6 and they can have game on power. The wide ranges also make it hard for opponents to place our cards if they declare a partial (if we have 18 points between us, that could be 9-9 or 12-6 or anything in between, or even more skewed if someone has extra shape). And the immediate raise can help us find a sacrifice (would much rather see 1♠-P-2♠-4♥ than 1♠-P-1NT-4♥). Overall, we don't really like to pass or bid 1nt with a fit.

Of course it's fair to ask, doesn't this cause a problem for us in constructive bidding? We do get to 3M more often than if we played a tighter range of raises, but the only hands that have game interest are the ones that have shape. This gives us a lot of protection if we end up at the three-level; very often if we wind up in 3M going down, opponents could make 3m and might've balanced themselves into it if we tried to pass out 2M.

-------

A lot of our point ranges are very approximate and they might differ in various writeups. Some of this is that we aren't huge point counters, some is that it depends a bit on MPs vs IMPs. The way I think about our ranges after a 1♠ opening is:

1. 2♦ says "I want to be in game if you think most people playing more standard/conservative methods opened your hand." This means if opener has 12 we should be in game, and some 11s will also qualify. If opener has a hand that he thinks old-fashioned 2/1 players would not open (typically 9-10, some 11s) then we should not be in game. This means for very flat hands the 2♦ bid can include 14 points, but with a six-card suit or something it will not be nearly so strong (11 with a good six-card suit can be okay).
2. A 1NT response won't have game interest opposite less than 14-15 (obviously with a big fit in opener's second suit things can change). The bottom end of 1NT might not be a good game even opposite 14-15, but at least we should have some safety in 2NT opposite such hands.

[nullve]

straube, on 2024-February-25, 07:06, said:

1S-1N, 2C-2S promises a doubleton and 8-12. They inch toward game. Opener is unlikely to have 14-15 (compared to 9-13) but knowing that pd has at least 8 (and a doubleton) it is safe and incumbent on him to make a game try.

The DBR sequence

1♠-1N
2♣-2♠

is from 1N onwards much like in standard or Polish Club but with Opener's/Responder's lower hcp limits shifted a couple of points downwards/upwards, respectively. And Opener would of course at least make a game try with 16-17 hcp here, in analogy with the DBR case.

You say it's "safe" to do so (at least in the DBR case), but one of the reasons many have switched to Gazzilli over 1M-1N is that they can have auctions like

1M-1N
2♣*-2M
P

instead of

1M-1N
2x-2M
2N-P

.

[straube]

nullve, on 2024-February-25, 18:12, said:

You say it's "safe" to do so (at least in the DBR case), but one of the reasons many have switched to Gazzilli over 1M-1N is that they can have auctions like

1M-1N
2♣*-2M
P

instead of

1M-1N
2x-2M
2N-P

Gazzilli works the same problem and has its tradeoffs. I noticed you asterisked the 2C bid. Is that 3+? For IMprecision it's 4+ and 1M-1N, 2C-2D is lightly invitational and natural.

[nullve]

straube, on 2024-February-25, 18:42, said:

I noticed you asterisked the 2C bid. Is that 3+?

No, ART.
It's Gazzilli, not Bart.

[straube]

nullve, on 2024-February-25, 20:27, said:

No, ART.
It's Gazzilli, not Bart.

Oh thanks. It's been ages since I tried Bart and think I've only read about Gazzilli.

[awm]

It's true that this does not solve all problems. The issue we were aiming to solve was that 2/1 GF does not seem best opposite openings that can be as light as 8-9 points with some regularity. Such a system would devote all our 2/1 bids to 15+ point hands (quite rare) while overloading the 1NT response even more than in standard methods. We looked at several alternative response structures:

1. Many of the methods designed for strong club (often relay based) take advantage of opener having an extremely narrow range. The idea is that you can pass on a lot of hands that don't make game opposite the maximum, and you can relay or something pretty often when you're responding, etc. This makes sense if your openings are like a good 11 to 15, but ours are (once again) 9-15 or even 8 with ten cards in two suits, and this range is a lot wider. We are also not big fans of upgrading shapely 13-14 point hands into 1♣, and you can miss game opposite these if you're too much a believer in passing 1M with less than 10 points or so.

2. For a while we played something based on Standard American or Acol, where 2/1 bids were forcing one round but not to game. However, this puts us quite a bit behind 2/1 or relays on slam bidding, and the methods also got pretty complex (we kept tweaking things to make minor improvements).

Our current method uses relays for slam bidding while retaining a lot of the advantages of #2 on non-GF hands (for example, getting out in 2M with various ranges of invite, which 2/1 GF typically cannot do) and adding the 2M-1 limit raise which we both really liked.

[nullve]

Seems like DBR can easily be combined with Gazzilli, at least after a 1♠ opening.

Then one might be able to respond 1N to 1♠ (and possibly 1♠ to 1♥) on much weaker hands, since Opener needs a very special hand to continue over

1♠-1N
2♣*-2♠**

* Gazzilli (e.g. "9-13", 4+ C OR "14-15", any)
* 2 S, denies the values to force to game opposite "14-15"

or

1♠-1N
2R*-2♠

* now "9-13" instead of "9-15"

.

[awm]

nullve, on 2024-February-26, 10:15, said:

Seems like DBR can easily be combined with Gazzilli, at least after a 1♠ opening.

Then one might be able to respond 1N to 1♠ (and possibly 1♠ to 1♥) on much weaker hands, since Opener needs a very special hand to continue over

1♠-1N
2♣*-2♠**

* Gazzilli (e.g. "9-13", 4+ C OR "14-15", any)
* 2 S, denies the values to force to game opposite "14-15"

or

1♠-1N
2R*-2♠

* now "9-13" instead of "9-15"

.

There are also many downsides to this though. If we break down the hand types that respond 1♠-1NT:

1. If responder has a weak three-suiter short in spades, you lose substantially playing this, because you cannot play 2♣ and you also cannot play in two of opener's second suit when he has 14-15.
2. If responder has 8-9 points short in spades and opener has 14-15, you might have a big fit in a second suit (and could make game) but you will have some trouble finding this after the 1♠-1NT-2♣! start (responder may have to bid 2NT or something here since 2♦ is stronger and 2♠ shows two, and this could of course be a much weaker hand too). This is easy after 1♠-1NT-natural bid-raise if there's a big fit (or pass a 2♠ rebid or a rebid in my 3-card suit).
3. If responder has 8-9 points with doubleton spade and opener has 9-13, you break even.
4. If responder has 8-9 points with doubleton spade and opener has 14-15, you can win by getting out in 2♠ instead of 2NT. But if you had a big fit in a non-spade suit you could actually be worse off here, even possibly missing a game in hearts.
5. If responder has 10-12 points, and opener has 14-15, your auction times out a bit worse (you may start with 1♠-1NT-2♣!-2♦!-3m and responder has to guess whether to raise past 3NT or try to bid 3NT, whereas after 1♠-1NT-2m-3m opener is better placed since the fit is already established).

Overall I don't really think this is worth it. And I do play Gazzilli in my most frequent partnership -- it just seems more useful when opener has a wider range of strong hands (17-21 instead of just 14-15) and when responder's minimum with doubleton spade and singleton spade is more aligned (we pass with 0-4 regardless of shape, whereas Sam and I pass with 0-7 or 0-8 and doubleton spade but only with 0-4 or so with singleton spade).

[Shugart23]

awm, on 2024-February-25, 04:12, said:

Since this seems to come up fairly frequently, I'll present the IMPrecision 1M sequences that Sam and I play(ed). While these are designed for our strong club system, one could play similar methods (with point ranges suitably adjusted) in many other systems as well.

First a note on our 1M openings. These are typically on the "rule of 18" and upper-limited by our 1♣ opening (16+) so we open a lot of hands in the 9-15 range. We are certainly not strict point counters, and will often pass minimums with points in the short suits. There are a few exceptions to our opening style too:

1. With 5332, we pass 10 point hands and open 1NT with 14-16 (or some 13s). This gives a relatively tight range of 11-bad 13.
2. With a six-card major we open a weak two bid with 5-10 points, meaning that our minimum for a one-suited 1M opening is around 11 (6-4 hands have a choice).
3. With a 7+ major, not 7222, and 10-14 or so points we often open 3NT (reverse namyats, showing a good major suit preempt).

In response to 1♠, we raise directly with a fit except on some game-forcing hands. The raises are:

2♠ = normal single raise (not "constructive"), around 6-9 points
2♥ = limit raise (10-12 or so), or a slammish splinter in hearts
3♠ = weak four-card raise
2NT = mixed four-card raise
3NT = minimum splinter in any suit
4♣, 4♦ = slammish splinter in the bid suit
4♠ = to play, can be a good hand but we probably do this less than other strong club pairs

The rest of the responses handle non-fitting hands (or game-forcing hands with fit). They are:

1NT = normally 8-12 points without fit, although it can be lighter if willing to pass any rebid (short spades).
2♣ = any GF (except some fitting minimums) or a sound invite (12-14) with 5+♥
2♦ = any sound invite (12-14) with 0-2♠ and 0-4♥, or a fitting game force that needs max w/right shortness for slam
3♣, 3♦, 3♥ = natural weak jump shift (range is like 0-9 points)
4♥ = to play

Opener passes the 1NT response with 5332 and 11-bad 13, or otherwise makes a natural rebid. If responder then preferences to spades, this shows 8-12 points (mildly forward going) and opener is invited to bid on with 14-15. Other non-pass continuations by responder similarly show values (two of a new suit is like 8-12, three of a new suit is like 10-11 because of the lack of a WJS, 2NT is around 11-12 with shortness in spades and no fit for opener's second suit).

After 1♠-2♣, we use relays when responder has a GF. If responder has the heart invite and wants to possibly get out in a partial, he breaks the relay after opener's rebid. Note that opener's rebids 2♠+ establish a GF in any case. The immediate rebids are:

1♠-2♣:
... 2♦ = 4+♣ or spade one suiter without shortness; includes 5044 but not 5404
... 2♥ = 4+♦, includes 5440
... 2♠ = 6+♠ single-suited and shortness somewhere
... 2NT+ = 4+♥; includes 5404 but not 5440

After 1♠-2♦ (which handles most "sound invites"), our priorities are to find our heart fits and to allow the auction to end at 2♠ when opener is very minimum and responder has doubleton. With this in mind:

1♠-2♦:
... 2♥ = "catch-all"; mostly just denies holding 4+♥ or a few maximums
... 2♠ = 4+♥ but very minimum, NF
... 2NT = 4+♥ and GF
... 3m = 5+ suit and GF
... 3♥ = 6♠+5♥ but very minimum (5/5 bids 2♠)
... 3♠ = 51(34) GF

1♠-2♦-2NT (hearts, GF):
... 3♣ relay to find 5/5, 6/4, or minor suit shape if opener is 5/4
... others natural

1♠-2♦-2♥:
... 2♠ = doubleton invite (2NT by opener is an artificial GF here, 3m by opener is a weak 5/5)
... 2NT = short spades invite without a six-card minor (normally 1435, 1444, 1345, etc)
... 3m = six-card suit natural invite
... 3♠ = GF spade raise that needs max with the right shortness for slam

In response to 1♥, we play almost the same but with almost everything shifted down a step. So our raises are:

2♥ = normal single raise (not "constructive"), around 6-9 points
2♦ = limit raise (10-12 or so)
3♥ = weak four-card raise
2NT = mixed four-card raise
3♠ = minimum splinter in any suit
3NT = slammish spade splinter
4♣, 4♦ = slammish splinter in the bid suit
4♥ = to play, can be a good hand but we probably do this less than other strong club pairs

The rest of the responses:

1♠ = normally 8-12 points without fit, although it can be lighter if willing to pass any natural rebid (short hearts).
1NT = any GF (except some fitting minimums) or a sound invite (12-14) with 5+♠
2♣ = any sound invite (12-14) with 0-2♥ and 0-4♠, or a fitting game force that needs max w/right shortness for slam
2♠, 3♣, 3♦ = natural weak jump shift (range is like 0-9 points)
4♠ = to play

After 1♥-1NT, responder breaks the relay after opener's rebid if not wanting to GF (2♥+ are GF anyway). Opener's rebids:
... 2♣ = diamonds or heart one-suiter with no shortness
... 2♦ = clubs
... 2♥ = heart one suiter with shortness somewhere
... 2♠+ = 4+♠

After 1♥-2♣ (sound invite), we are similarly looking for spade fits and trying to get out in 2♥ with min opposite doubleton:
... 2♦ = "catch-all", mostly just denies 4♠ or some maximums
... 2♥ = 4♠ and 5♥ but very minimum
... 2♠ = 4♠ and GF
... 2NT = 6♥ and GF (3♣ relays for shortness, 3♦/3♥ show clubs and diamonds respectively, 3♠ shows both minors and short ♥).
... 3m = 5+ suit and GF
... 3♥ = 6♥+5♠ and minimum
... 3♠ = 15(34) GF

Perhaps the strangest part of our system is 1♥-1♠; this is like a forcing notrump but could contain any number of spades. We think of this rather like the auction 1♠-1NT (which could contain any number of hearts) and if opponents compete over this we play simple takeout doubles. Opener's rebids are:

...1NT = artificial, showing 3-4♠ (we use this to find spade fits in case responder has 4-5♠)
... 2♣/2♦/2♥ = all natural, although 2♣ can be 2533 precisely
... 2♠ is not a "raise"; it shows 5♥ and a 6+ minor and maximum
... 2NT shows 6♥ and 5♠ (not necessarily extras but forcing one round)
... 3m shows a 6/5 max

If opener rebids 2♣/2♦/2♥ and responder doesn't pass, this again shows 8-12 points (somewhat forward going) or 11-12 points (if 2♠+).

This leaves the auction 1♥-1♠-1NT, where opener has shown 3-4♠. Responder can pass this, but only with a 3145 shape precisely and less than around 11 points. The other continuations are:

... 2♣ = 3154 or 5/5 minors, primarily looking for a landing spot (but opener should raise to 3m with 14-15 and a fit)
... 2♦ = 4+♠ and 8-12 points (looking for the right fit and level)
... 2♥ = doubleton, 8-12 points, not 4♠
... 2♠ = either 5+♠ or 4♠ and singleton heart, not forward-going at all
... 2NT = 3145 or 5/5 minors, 11-12 points or so
... 3m = 6+ suit and 9-11 points

When I played our version of MICS, when I opened 1D, my wife never knew if I had a 5+ card Major. Her response would be 1H showing 3+ Hearts, 1S showing 3+ Spades and denying 3 Hearts, 1NT and 2NT both denied holding a 3 card Major where the difference was HCP count.

So now turning to throwing in 5M332s hands into the 1NT bid. Doing this means you either have extra length or have a side suit or have a very weak 5M32 hand. Why not take that very weak 5M332 hand and throw it into the 1Diamnond bid and then responder can bid up the line, but instead of naming a 4 card suit, he names his 3 card suit - much like I used to do in my version of MICS ?

Then, if you open 1M and hear 1NT, you won't be responding with a short suit and Responder will know you are two suited or have length in your Major and you also don't miss out on finding your 5-3 Major fit.

Would this work ?

[straube]

Shugart23, on 2024-February-26, 11:29, said:

So now turning to throwing in 5M332s hands into the 1NT bid. Doing this means you either have extra length or have a side suit or have a very weak 5M32 hand. Why not take that very weak 5M332 hand and throw it into the 1Diamnond bid and then responder can bid up the line, but instead of naming a 4 card suit, he names his 3 card suit - much like I used to do in my version of MICS ?

Didn't Rodwell invent support doubles so his partner's wouldn't raise his 3-cd major with 3-cd support? With a nebulous diamond we don't even have a minor to fall back on.

I'm sure your idea works. I don't like the tradeoffs personally. I think double-barreled has a good alternative to this anyway.

[foobar]

Shugart23, on 2024-February-26, 11:29, said:

When I played our version of MICS, when I opened 1D, my wife never knew if I had a 5+ card Major. Her response would be 1H showing 3+ Hearts, 1S showing 3+ Spades and denying 3 Hearts, 1NT and 2NT both denied holding a 3 card Major where the difference was HCP count.

So now turning to throwing in 5M332s hands into the 1NT bid. Doing this means you either have extra length or have a side suit or have a very weak 5M32 hand. Why not take that very weak 5M332 hand and throw it into the 1Diamnond bid and then responder can bid up the line, but instead of naming a 4 card suit, he names his 3 card suit - much like I used to do in my version of MICS ?

Then, if you open 1M and hear 1NT, you won't be responding with a short suit and Responder will know you are two suited or have length in your Major and you also don't miss out on finding your 5-3 Major fit.

Would this work ?

SCUM bundles the 11-13 5M332 hands into the 1D opening, and the 1M responses show 4+ (rarely 3+ when really not wanting to leave opener in 1D). Responding to 1D with 3+M in a non-canape system seems misplaced, and can leave us poorly placed in a contested auction.

Having played the SCUM approach, I haven't seen any significant downsides (yet). We will undoubtedly run into situations where opening 1M with 5M332 11-13 would have gotten us into the superior 2M with 5-3 fit. However, as ulven noted, the question is whether the method is a statistical winner in the long run (as opposed to optimal for a given hand).

[nullve]

nullve, on 2024-February-25, 18:12, said:

DBR

Wrong acronym.

[akwoo]

As it turns out, my partner and I are also trying to figure out major suit raises in a light opening Precision context...

1) I suppose you can have a wider limit raise range since you have room to re-invite - otherwise 10-13 (and there certainly are 13 hcp limit raises) is uncomfortably wide. We're currently splitting that into two different structures - stuffing the stronger end into a Swedish-style modified Jacoby and the weaker as 1M-3M.

2) We'd like to be able to raise 1M to 2M on less than 6 (though probably not 0) - to be able to put pressure on opponents when we're 9+3, not just 9+6. Do you have suggestions on how to do that without unnecessarily getting to the 3 level when opener has a super-max, or is that not a concern in practice?

[pescetom]

straube, on 2024-February-26, 12:32, said:

Didn't Rodwell invent support doubles so his partner's wouldn't raise his 3-cd major with 3-cd support?

Is there any reason to think so?

[DavidKok]

The book "Eric Rodwell's Bidding Topics" by Eric Rodwell claims so at the start of the first chapter.

Quote

Introduction
I invented Support Doubles and Redoubles in 1974. The original idea was that opener could double an overcall to show three-card support for responder’s major.

[...]

A Support Redouble applies when RHO (Right Hand Opponent), and likewise LHO = (Left Hand Opponent) makes a take-out double of the response of one of a major:

[...]

I invented this convention originally to avoid playing in a 3-3 major suit fit. At the time we played Precision, and in response to the 1♦ opening, I thought it clever to bid 1♥ or 1♠ on a three-card suit. My partner, Mr. Bloom, thought it was right to raise with three-card support. So, the resulting 3-3 fit I named a ‘Bloom Obstinance Fit’. One day the bidding went:

[...]

At this point my partner, after long thought, said “Two Hots” (he’s from Boston). At this point I thought “at least in competition, he can double to show three-card support”. Thus the Support Double was born, though at the time I called it the ‘Bloom Obstinance Double’. It has later been renamed the Support Double.

I edited it somewhat as the images of auctions don't copy well, but I'm sure you get the idea.

[awm]

Shugart23, on 2024-February-26, 11:29, said:

When I played our version of MICS, when I opened 1D, my wife never knew if I had a 5+ card Major. Her response would be 1H showing 3+ Hearts, 1S showing 3+ Spades and denying 3 Hearts, 1NT and 2NT both denied holding a 3 card Major where the difference was HCP count.

So now turning to throwing in 5M332s hands into the 1NT bid. Doing this means you either have extra length or have a side suit or have a very weak 5M32 hand. Why not take that very weak 5M332 hand and throw it into the 1Diamnond bid and then responder can bid up the line, but instead of naming a 4 card suit, he names his 3 card suit - much like I used to do in my version of MICS ?

Then, if you open 1M and hear 1NT, you won't be responding with a short suit and Responder will know you are two suited or have length in your Major and you also don't miss out on finding your 5-3 Major fit.

Would this work ?

There are two main reasons why people put the 5M-332 hands into 1♦:
1. Their constructive methods don't handle this pattern well after 1M. But my methods (outline above) are fine for this hand type (mostly because 1♠-1NT is not forcing and the balanced hands always pass).
2. They're worried that the 5M-332 hands will be a disappointment to partner in a competitive auction, because they're weaker with a fit than shapely hands. But again, this is not a major concern for me because my balanced range starts a queen heavier than the unbalanced hands and the extra queen compensates for the lack of shape.

Even if you do put the 5M-332 hands into 1♦, I don't think it makes sense to respond to 1♦ with three-card majors. Yes, this helps you find the 5-3 fit when opener has 5M-332, but it's far more common that opener has some (4432) or (4333) hand where responding in this way makes it hard to locate your 4-4 major fits (or forces you to play a lot of 4-3 major fits).