[phoenixmj]

Recently I had a hand with 18 points.

The bidding goes 1D (my left hand opponent), pass, pass, double (me), redouble, ??????

Over the redouble, I read that a free bid will show 6 plus points and at least a 4 card suit. I also read that a jump bid will now show 0-8 points and a long suit - preemptive.

So - my partner is a passed hand, is there a way to show more than 8 points and at least a 4 card suit? In this case I had 18 points and my partner bid a major, so I was able to bid a game. But, suppose I had 16 points - do I go to game?

Let's say that the interference is something other than a redouble - then is a jump still considered preemptive?

Thanks in advance.

[DavidKok]

I think something confusing is going on. Normally on the auction (1♦)-X-(XX)-?, we expect opener to have around 10+ HCP and redoubler to also show 10+, give or take. If we have 18 ourselves, that doesn't leave 6+ for partner. There is no point having a bidding system on this start that caters to that range unless the opponents' calls had artificial meanings.

Instead, normally if they redouble it's about to get expensive. They have the balance of the points and a desire to defend. Your system should cater to finding the best strain. Partner should bid with as few as 0 HCP to get to the optimal suit immediately.

As an aside, on the very different but seemingly similar auction (1♦)-X-(P)-?, partner may again have to find a bid with 0 HCP. As a result you are not strong enough to raise to game with 18, or even with 22. Instead you should keep in mind there was an opening to your right, and add up to 40. Game may still be on, but don't hang partner after having forced them to bid.

[phoenixmj]

DavidKok, on 2024-May-22, 15:52, said:

I think something confusing is going on. Normally on the auction (1♦)-X-(XX)-?, we expect opener to have around 10+ HCP and redoubler to also show 10+, give or take. If we have 18 ourselves, that doesn't leave 6+ for partner. There is no point having a bidding system on this start that caters to that range unless the opponents' calls had artificial meanings.

Instead, normally if they redouble it's about to get expensive. They have the balance of the points and a desire to defend. Your system should cater to finding the best strain. Partner should bid with as few as 0 HCP to get to the optimal suit immediately.

As an aside, on the very different but seemingly similar auction (1♦)-X-(P)-?, partner may again have to find a bid with 0 HCP. As a result you are not strong enough to raise to game with 18, or even with 22. Instead you should keep in mind there was an opening to your right, and add up to 40. Game may still be on, but don't hang partner after having forced them to bid.

You are correct - I misrepresented the bidding. The bidding was 1D - p, p, double by me, then redouble by opener. Same question after that. I will correct my opening question.

Thanks

[Stephen Tu]

phoenixmj, on 2024-May-22, 15:43, said:

Recently I had a hand with 18 points.

The bidding goes 1D (my right hand opponent), double (me), redouble, ??????

Over the redouble, I read that a free bid will show 6 plus points and at least a 4 card suit.

Absolutely not. After the redouble, the doubling side is expected to be in danger of being penalized. The priority is finding the safest landing spot at the cheapest level. Responder to the double only shows a 4 cd suit, and promises ZERO points. You are looking for a trump suit to get out as cheaply as possible, or hope the opps bid on. The emphasis is not on showing values and trying to bid games. The opponents have claimed more than half the deck, if they haven't psyched.

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I also read that a jump bid will now show 0-8 points and a long suit - preemptive.

Preemptive yes, I wouldn't expect 8 HCP though, maybe 6 at most.

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So - if my partner is not a passed hand, is there a way to show more than 8 points and at least a 4 card suit? In this case I had 18 points and my partner bid a major, so I was able to bid a game. But, suppose I had 16 points - do I go to game?

If you have 18 pts for your takeout double, and the opponents have opened and redoubled, partner is expected to be broke, unless at least one of your opponents psyched. (18 + 11 (opener) + 10 (redoubler) = 39, leaving partner a jack at most, usually). Responder, in the rare case they actually have semi-decent values, can *pass* the redouble (which normally shows no preference, not desire to defend the opps redoubled, with normal agreements), then bid new suit freely/raise doubler's runout later.

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Let's say that the interference is something other than a redouble - then is a jump still considered preemptive?

No, in this case jumps show invitational values, when there was no redouble.

[Stephen Tu]

1d-p-p-dbl-rdbl is a completely different situation with only one opponent showing strength.

Now, pass by advancer I think is normally played as penalties (want to play 1d-xx), non-jump suit bids should not promise any strength (since you still want to bid with nothing, and not be playing 1d-xx), and jump bids should be inv as normal IMO, not preemptive. They are played as preemptive when it's responder redoubling because then opener/doubler/responder claiming all of the deck there's not much room for advancer to have strength, but that's not the case here.

[bluenikki]

Stephen Tu, on 2024-May-22, 16:05, said:

Now, pass by responder I think is normally played as penalties (want to play 1d-xx.

Partner will not bid a 3-card suit over the redouble. So the pass cannot mean a desire to defend (though it may conceal such a desire). It's what you do when your only suit is opener's.

[smerriman]

bluenikki, on 2024-May-22, 18:29, said:

Partner will not bid a 3-card suit over the redouble. So the pass cannot mean a desire to defend (though it may conceal such a desire). It's what you do when your only suit is opener's.

Perhaps you might choose not to with your partner, but I don't see why they "will not" and "cannot". If opener hadn't redoubled you would have had to bid a 3 card suit (unless you had a penalty pass). It seems perfectly reasonable to play the same way over a redouble.

[mikeh]

It appears that some of the earlier replies were based on an erroneous OP. To be clear….1D p p x xx ?

It is possible to play that advancer’s pass of the redouble is penalty oriented. It will arise infrequently but it’s definitely playable. Or one could agree that the pass simply denies any clear direction…say 3=3=4=3. I suspect most players haven’t discussed this, even with regular partners. I want hazard which approach is ‘standard’ and maybe it’s one of those things that varies geographically.

Leaving aside advancer’s possible pass (advancer is the partner of doubler….responder is the partner of opener), we have meanings to ascribe to various calls.

While there are clear similarities between bidding after a balancing double and bidding after a direct double, there are important differences, both in terms of what advancer can expect for the double and what hands/suit length advancer may have.

It is normal for the reopening or balancing double to have a lower minimum than for a direct takeout double.This is true at imps but much more so at matchpoints, and advancer should be aware of this.

Also, and this can be to some degree vulnerability dependent, advancer won’t have a hand/suit on which he could have overcalled. So there are negative inferences available in a balancing double scenario due to advancer having passed. This is similar to but not identical to the inferences had the auction been P 1D x P ? Now advancer is limited by not having opened.

All of this implies, for example, that after 1D p p x xx a bid such as 2H or 2S would show much the same (maybe a little higher range) than 1D x p 2M, but advancer won’t have 5 good cards in his suit along with 8+ hcp…he’d overcall with that (if you’re very conservative, this won’t hold for you).

I would not play that jumps by advancer are preemptive. The redouble doesn’t mean doubler’s side has no game…it means that opener (usually) has a good 6+ suit and moderate extras. It doesn’t promise a huge hand in terms of hcp.

If advancer’s pass over the xx would be penalty, then any non-jump suit bid could be a zero count and a 3 card suit. Obviously it usually won’t be but doubler has to tread carefully. An average 18 count, as an example, isn’t remotely close to a game bid.

Bear in mind that advancer should show signs of life with a ‘good’ 8 count so if advancer doesn’t jump, doubler needs significant extras even to raise.

Advancer can cuebid with a very good hand in context. If I held a 4=4=4=1 10 count, I’d bid 2D after 1D p p x xx.

[bluenikki]

smerriman, on 2024-May-22, 18:39, said:

Perhaps you might choose not to with your partner, but I don't see why they "will not" and "cannot". If opener hadn't redoubled you would have had to bid a 3 card suit (unless you had a penalty pass). It seems perfectly reasonable to play the same way over a redouble.

Bidding a 3-card suit is a good way to reach a 7-card fit instead of 8. Without the redouble, you have no choice. But why do it voluntarily?

[smerriman]

bluenikki, on 2024-May-23, 18:57, said:

Bidding a 3-card suit is a good way to reach a 7-card fit instead of 8. Without the redouble, you have no choice. But why do it voluntarily?

So that partner can tell when you are actually interested in defending 1♦xx, and when you aren't. But both ways seem perfectly playable to me.