[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

the following hand came up last weekend, we did fight to get promoted,
but in the end failed.

In 2nd, red vs. green, you hold

♠Q982
♥K87
♦AQ42
♣A7

Dealer opens 1♣ and it is your turn.

The choices are make a T/O or bid 1NT (15-18), which way you are going?
As always I am more interested in the reasons, I dont think either choice is
wrong, but maybe one is better than the other.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Douglas43]

 P_Marlowe, on 2024-March-12, 01:47, said:

Hi,

the following hand came up last weekend, we did fight to get promoted,
but in the end failed.

In 2nd, red vs. green, you hold

♠Q982
♥K87
♦AQ42
♣A7

Dealer opens 1♣ and it is your turn.

The choices are make a T/O or bid 1NT (15-18), which way you are going?
As always I am more interested in the reasons, I dont think either choice is
wrong, but maybe one is better than the other.

With kind regards
Marlowe

The hand isn't perfect for either option but I'm a takeout doubler. The Ax in clubs is more like a quick trick than a no-trump stopper.
Paul

[Cyberyeti]

Over a 2 card club I might bid 1N, if it's more, I double. May also depend on what partner does with a flat 10 with 4 hearts in our system over a double.

[P_Marlowe]

 Cyberyeti, on 2024-March-12, 03:47, said:

Over a 2 card club I might bid 1N, if it's more, I double. May also depend on what partner does with a flat 10 with 4 hearts in our system over a double.

I am not 100% sure, but think, they played 2+. The opponents played 2/1, but taking the length of the suit into account is a valid point.
Sry, should have added this in original post.
He will jump to 2H with exactly 4 cards, 3H will show 5+.

[apollo1201]

X looks less risky if partner is broke (1NTX or 2 something X will be costly), while with 8+, partner will usually make some noise so would still be able to bid game if need be.

And with Ax, I do n t mind partner playing the hand.

I would do the same MPs or IMPs

[mw64ahw]

Always 1NT
Responder needs 11+ to move forward unless raising with ♣s
Partner needs 8+/can Pass with 5-7 or transfer with less
I don't worry about a X with with an escape sequence in place if partner is Bust and I have two 4-card suits
You have the Ace of the bid suit so some further comfort

[paulg]

I am a 1NT bidder as I don't know what to do if partner responds in hearts. At least this way I have given a fair description of my distribution and strength.

We also have more system after 1NT has been doubled than we have for responses to doubles when we actually hold a 1NT overcall. as I think mw64ahw also said.

I would be closer to doubling if they were playing Acol and practically guaranteeing four clubs.

[jillybean]

I'm a 1NT bidder, I've always taken the view that describing my strength is important with these flat hands.
♣Ax is less of a concern than if I double and hear hearts. Unless partner bids spadesm X kills the auction IMO

As said above, we have methods over 1nt and 1nt (X)

[mikeh]

Edit. Double for me, and I don’t think it’s close.

I have short clubs with no hope of a second stopper in my hand. I have a minimum for 1N with not a shred of any redeeming feature and nowhere to go if LHO doubles.

Meanwhile, I have adequate support for the other suits.

The argument that we have methods over 1N doesn’t persuade me. We have methods over a takeout double as well! Plus, when it’s their hand, we can’t get to 1 suit over 1N.

Overcalling 1N is very different from opening 1N. It’s far more likely to be doubled, for one thing. For another, partner has to cater to an 18 count rather than the max of 17 for a standard strong 1N, so when we hold a horrible minimum we may get too high.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

if you go for the T/O, the auction continues as followes

(1C) - X - (Pass) - Pass
(1H) - Pass - (Pass) - X (1)
(Pass) - ??? (2)

(1) The first pass did convert, but did not promise strength, due to this I have Passed
at my 2nd turn
This double is T/O oriented, not a penaly double

(2) Your turn

[mikeh]

P_Marlowe, on 2024-March-13, 00:13, said:

Hi,

if you go for the T/O, the auction continues as followes

(1C) - X - (Pass) - Pass
(1H) - Pass - (Pass) - X (1)
(Pass) - ??? (2)

(1) The first pass did convert, but did not promise strength, due to this I have Passed
at my 2nd turn
This double is T/O oriented, not a penaly double

(2) Your turn

We take out takeout doubles unless we have good reason not to do so. We have no reason to pass this double but we can infer that partner had his bid….and opener ran.

I don’t think partner would pass a takeout double with 4=5 in the blacks. I also don’t think he’d double 1H with that shape and a desire to compete…he’d bid 1S. I think he’s very likely 3=1=3=6 with some texture in clubs.

I can’t see running enough tricks in notrump, very often after a heart lead, and we rate not to have a spade fit…see above but also east rates to be 4=4 majors. So by process of elimination, I bid 2C.

[Douglas43]

Bit different for me because I usually play that after a penalty double or penalty pass all subsequent doubles are for penalty. I would have bid 1NT at my second turn. I have a non-minimum takeout double without enough Hearts to double 1♥. Partner can pretty much count me for 4=3=4=2 or maybe 4=3=5=1 and about 14-16 hcp. Partner is now in charge. Paul

[helene_t]

I consider this hand too weak for 1NT but try to imagine that I play a style in which it is strong enough. In that case,
on the Nigel scale, I give
double = 10
1♦=1
pass = 0
1nt = 0

If partner responds 1♥, I have an easy pass.

If we belong in notrumps, I prefer to be dummy.

As for the second question, I like MikeH's 2♣ bid but I think I prefer 1♠.

[bluenikki]

helene_t, on 2024-March-13, 04:27, said:

If partner responds 1♥, I have an easy pass.

Sure, but the problem is the 2♥ advance.

[helene_t]

bluenikki, on 2024-March-13, 09:34, said:

Sure, but the problem is the 2♥ advance.

Yeah I see your point. I would bid 3♣ and then pass any rebid other than 3♠ (and 4m of course).

[P_Marlowe]

mikeh, on 2024-March-13, 00:39, said:

<snip>
I can’t see running enough tricks in notrump, very often after a heart lead, and we rate not to have a spade fit…see above but also east rates to be 4=4 majors. So by process of elimination, I bid 2C.

2C as an offer to play or as cue, asking partner to discribe his hand?

[mikeh]

P_Marlowe, on 2024-March-13, 11:05, said:

2C as an offer to play or as cue, asking partner to discribe his hand?

To me, this is obviously to play. Think about it

Partner has long clubs, at least internally solid even if not full of hcp. When partner makes a takeout double of 1C, advancer should bid as if doubler were 4=4=4=1 with around 13 hcp. Obviously doubler will often be slightly off shape, as here, and may sometimes be a little lighter…or stronger.The point is that the double doesn’t promise any club length. And could be very strong.

So it would be unusual to pass as advancer with a 4 card major (and ludicrous, imo, to hold an even longer major). Even with very long clubs, we might be defending 1C doubled while cold for something much better.

Thus advancer’s double will usually be on 6 clubs or some 5332 with 5 excellent clubs….or very occasionally very long clubs and a terrible hand. I once passed 1S x’d with J109xxxx xx xx xx, not because I thought they’d go down but because -160 seemed preferable to going minus ourselves (we were red at imps).

When advancer reopens with a double, he clearly doesn’t have the very weak hand. Plus with 7 clubs or a chunky 6 card suit, say 3226 or 2236, he’d bid 2C himself. And with 4 spades, surely anyone wishing to compete would reopen with 1S

For all these reasons, I infer that he’s very likely 3=1=3=6, although maybe 3=1=4=5 is possible or a good ish 3=2=3=5

Since the opps will often hold 9 hearts and definitely 8 and since I have no assurance that clubs, though good, will run, I eschew notrump and aim for the most likely plus. Btw, I wouldn’t be surprised to see 2H on my left no matter what call I make

[P_Marlowe]

mikeh, on 2024-March-13, 13:23, said:

To me, this is obviously to play. Think about it

<snip>

I will, altough I am not sure I will adopt it, nevertheless the though to use 2C as a forward / strengh showing
bid, to differentiate the strength as an option, was not crossing my mind, and your post gave me the idea, ...,
so thanks for the new idea, I will also read your post and contemplate it, we will see, what will stick, and what not.

[mycroft]

I have two issues with 1NT:

• The club stopper is inflexible (and as MikeH says, there isn't anything there for a second. Or as people taught me, I don't have "one and a half stoppers").
  
• I don't like upgrading hands into 1NT (again, for the reason Mike said - way too easy to double even a good 16). And I play "good 15" to 18 (at least partly because of the above reason).

At MPs (I assume this isn't, given the "promotion" statement, but still), I tend to follow Kit Woolsey's principle in Matchpoints of "the second flaw". So, since the only flaw about double is the heart-that-is-a-club, I go for that.

At IMPs, I look at the vulnerability and take the safest call. 1NT is equally (if not more) easy to double at IMPs - sure, 180 is 3 IMPs to 90 (and 380 is really bad), and sure it's the hardest contract to defend, and sure, *usually* partner has about half the remaining points and everything's fine - but when it's wrong, it's obviously (to LHO) wrong, and it's 500 and 800 wrong, not "scramble for the 7th trick". It would be interesting to think about what happens if it's equal - or even favourable - vulnerability, but here I think it's too dangerous.

Now sure, we could be missing game. Sure, we could not know what game to find if partner bids 2♥. Sure, the chance LHO has near-zero is the same as partner having it. But *my* partners never do, and when they do, the opponents with our cards have to get it right as well to cost us.

It is interesting as Cyberyeti et al said about "what's the 1♣ opener?" Because if it's a 2+, especially a "natural or balanced" 2+, it's quite possible it's gone 1♦-? at the other table, where the choices are different (are the opponents modern enough to double with the hanging club suit? Do they overcall 1NT on "okay 15s with good stoppers" - especially if the other option is pass?

Since I double, I take out partner's takeout double (especially as they've found my short suit). I have no idea where; I like Mike's 2♣, which we have zero agreement on, but I'm hoping will show either extras or ability to play it opposite partner's attempt to defend 1♣x (or both, if I'm really lucky). I assume 1NT rather than double at the other table got 3NT (with or without Stayman) and it was trivial :-)

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

one last question before I rap.

I decided to violate "Take out double are meant to be take out" and passed, neither of you did,
which is most likely the better / saner decision.
I did pass without much conviction, but was not able to think of an better alternative, and than
the processing stops at one time, and the result was random.

So just assume, you are subing in for me, you now have to find a lead against 1Hx.

With kind regards
Marlowe