[straube]

IMPS all red

1H P 1S 2D
3D 4D 4H 5D
6D P 7H

Hands are below, but first look at the auction and tell me what 3D means. Does it merely establish a GF or does it set spades as trump or is it a stopper ask?
Similarly, is 4H to play or a cue bid in support of spades?


















Qxxx ATxxx void AQxx

AKJxx Q9xx xx Kx


Opening hand thought spades were trump and responder was showing a heart control. Opening hand thought responder should have used Jacoby to show fit immediately.

Responder wanted to make a picture bid of his hand, showing his suit and then bidding game in hearts. He thought 4H was to play.

Set us straight. Thanks.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

besides being Gf, 3D is asking for further description, e.g. a stopper.
It does not promise a fit, you have 2S / 3S / 4D / 4S for setting / establishing
the spade fit, there may been add. options.
It also does Not deny a spade fit, it asks for further description, and hopefully
it denies a hand, that could make a more descriptive bid.

2H / 3H / 4H by opener are natural, showing a 1-suited hand, if you agreed to play
suppX, it should also deny 3 spade cards.

If opener wants to force to game, a view you can take, but dont have to, since 3S
already would show 4 card supp., 15-17 strength and an unbalanced hand, which is a
pretty close description of openers hand, since 1S only showed 4+ spades and 6+ HCP
(even less, if you respond light), what is wrong with 4D?
4H showes fit, it is not a control.
6D is ..., you already forced to game, bidding your hand to the max.
At one point it makes sense to show, that one has a min for the previous bidding.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Stephen Tu]

straube, on 2024-May-12, 07:29, said:

Hands are below, but first look at the auction and tell me what 3D means. Does it merely establish a GF or does it set spades as trump or is it a stopper ask?
Similarly, is 4H to play or a cue bid in support of spades?

Cue bid by opener should tend to DENY fit. You have 3 raises available and a splinter, plus support double for the 3 cd support hands. The only time you might cue instead is with a hand inappropriate for splinter that you judged too huge for just a 4S raise. Like maybe some 22+ 4522 construction you didn't judge quite worth opening 2C and rebidding 2H, and not wanting to treat as balanced either with 4-5 in the majors. Plus maybe some 4531/4621 hands.

Therefore, since opener usually denied fit, the voluntary 4H shows fit, to play.

Quote

Opening hand thought spades were trump and responder was showing a heart control. Opening hand thought responder should have used Jacoby to show fit immediately.

Responder wanted to make a picture bid of his hand, showing his suit and then bidding game in hearts. He thought 4H was to play.

IMO, opener should just bid 3S. I wouldn't consider the hand anywhere near strong enough for 4D. Spades are definitely not set by the cue bid. The cue bid is needed for very strong heart one suiters or like 18+ without diamond stop, or heart/club two-suiters that don't want to bypass 3nt. You are deprived of the 3c jump shift by the diamond intervention, and double is presumably support.

IMO responder should have used Jacoby instead of 1S.

[thepossum]

I would have thought 3D was showing support for spades and forcing
Sad to end up in a heart slam

What were the hands - sorry they are there - need to look

But ignore me

[DavidKok]

I disagree with the first two answers. I like support with support. If opener doesn't have a fit for spades and does have extras they either have more hearts (3♥) or more clubs (3♣) or more diamonds (trap pass). The only exception is 2=5=3=3 18-19, where I don't see how 3♦ solves much of the problem. At any rate I don't wish to allocate a rare competitive bid to such a specific hand type.
To the contrary, I have a need for a lot of raises. Minimum, extra defensive values, extra shape (i.e. offensive values), splinter, perhaps a fitbid. So I prefer for 3♦ to confirm spades. Incidentally I'm also not a big fan of support doubles, and the weasel hands can start with a takeout double instead. But even if you do play support doubles here I don't think a nebulous 3♦ is a great idea, and neither 'stopper ask' nor 'GF probe' works well. Partner may well have bid 1♠ with some shape and now be stuck on re-evaluating their hand with nothing to go on.

Also partner should definitely have raised hearts the first time. Support with support. On the 1♥-1♠ auction in particular it is quite common to be unable to show the support later - we don't even need interference from the opponents, an innocent jump shift to 3m would do it. To me this auction is a nice case study of failing to show shape and failing to show support - concealing the four card suit, then partner made a strong bid that could possibly be nebulous within the partnership agreements, then did it again at the 6-level(!?), and when the smoke cleared we're in a poor grand. Incidentally I think responder should also not go to a grand on an auction like this.

P.S. I think this is well beyond suitable for the N/B forum.

[straube]

DavidKok, on 2024-May-12, 10:50, said:

To me this auction is a nice case study of failing to show shape and failing to show support - concealing the four card suit, then partner made a strong bid that could possibly be nebulous within the partnership agreements, then did it again at the 6-level(!?), and when the smoke cleared we're in a poor grand. Incidentally I think responder should also not go to a grand on an auction like this.

I agree the criticism of not showing support immediately. If, however, responder believes that his 4H bid is natural and possibly even a limit raise sort of hand straining to show fit, then responder absolutely has to bid 7H here. He has no wastage in diamonds and more strength than he's shown and a fourth heart.

I'll admit to being responder here. My initial plan was for an auction such as 1H-1S, 2C-4H but, as you say can happen, the auction got away from me. Jacoby 2N next time.

[awm]

In sequences where the opponent in 3rd seat intervenes, cuebid by opener is needed to create a game force. Typically it will not have a fit for partner. Here the auction started:

1♥ - Pass - 1♠ - 2♦

All the bids opener could've used to show spade raises without interference (2♠, 3♠, 4♠, 4♣, 4♦) are still available. We also have double which most people play as a three-card raise (whether a "support double" or a "takeout double"). We do not need the cuebid to be yet another raise. Instead, cuebid handles the following types:

* Balanced 18-19 (now treated as game force) without an appropriate diamond holding to rebid 2NT.
* Game force with hearts and clubs (note that 3♣ by opener in this auction is not forcing).
* Game force heart one-suiter where the suit isn't good enough to be happy blasting 4♥.

I do agree that on the given hand, responder would've been better off starting with 2NT.

[Stephen Tu]

awm, on 2024-May-12, 12:47, said:

1♥ - Pass - 1♠ - 2♦

All the bids opener could've used to show spade raises without interference (2♠, 3♠, 4♠, 4♣, 4♦) are still available.

There is some ambiguity on whether 4♣ is a raise or not, I wouldn't try it without discussion. Some still adhere to splinters only in the opponent's suit.

[pescetom]

 straube, on 2024-May-12, 07:29, said:

IMPS all red

1H P 1S 2D
3D 4D 4H 5D
6D P 7H

Hands are below, but first look at the auction and tell me what 3D means. Does it merely establish a GF or does it set spades as trump or is it a stopper ask?
Similarly, is 4H to play or a cue bid in support of spades?


















Qxxx ATxxx void AQxx

AKJxx Q9xx xx Kx


Opening hand thought spades were trump and responder was showing a heart control. Opening hand thought responder should have used Jacoby to show fit immediately.

Responder wanted to make a picture bid of his hand, showing his suit and then bidding game in hearts. He thought 4H was to play.

Set us straight. Thanks.

It's an interesting question, but it would be so much easier for everyone if you used the handviewer instead of a page of text.