[jillybean]

I play in both Canada and New Zealand. I've been fortunate to play 12-14nt and Multi with some good partners in NZ, it's always fun to try new systems.
While I am happy to play their system, I find there is a general disdain for 2/1 Downunder. New players are keen to learn, they are keen to learn anything but
more experienced players scoff when I say I play 2/1.

I'd say 2/1 is the standard in North America, I believe the top players Downunder don't play ACOL, or at least not anything near std ACOL, but why the disdain for 2/1?

[pilowsky]

 jillybean, on 2023-December-31, 10:57, said:

I play in both Canada and New Zealand. I've been fortunate to play 12-14nt and Multi with some good partners in NZ, it's always fun to try new systems.
While I am happy to play their system, I find there is a general disdain for 2/1 Downunder. New players are keen to learn, they are keen to learn anything but
more experienced players scoff when I say I play 2/1.

I'd say 2/1 is the standard in North America, I believe the top players Downunder don't play ACOL, or at least not anything near std ACOL, but why the disdain for 2/1?

Just not true.
And a happy new year to you.

[sfi]

 jillybean, on 2023-December-31, 10:57, said:

I'd say 2/1 is the standard in North America, I believe the top players Downunder don't play ACOL, or at least not anything near std ACOL, but why the disdain for 2/1?

NZ and Aus are very different in this respect. 2/1 is common in Aus, while some version of Acol is more often the system of choice in NZ. There is a core of top NZ players that have their own influences (they have lots of international experience, including a recent Bermuda Bowl semifinal appearance, and have imported at least one European), so their ideas are probably filtering down through the other players over time. There are also a few well-respected bidding theorists who produce and play very different systems, so NZ has a fair bit of variety.

Their top players don't play Acol because it doesn't stand up well at top levels without significant adjustments. No idea why the disdain for 2/1, but I suspect it's not taught that frequently so people aren't as used to it. You would certainly encounter it among the tournament players though.

[pescetom]

Maybe they just hear a different drum.

Wasn't Roy Kerr from NZ?

Happy New Year, even if it already happened down there

[jillybean]

 pescetom, on 2023-December-31, 16:43, said:

Maybe they just hear a different drum.

Wasn't Roy Kerr from NZ?

Happy New Year, even if it already happened down there

Yes, Roy was from the deep south NZ but I have no idea what he played.

I'm still up here, heading South in February.
Happy New Year

[DavidKok]

 jillybean, on 2023-December-31, 16:47, said:

Yes, Roy was from the deep south NZ but I have no idea what he played.

I'm prepared to get egg on my face, but as the inventor of the Symmetric Relay system I'd guess he played that. Strong club with shape-showing relays over all openings (or is it 'most openings'? I have the notes somewhere but don't remember how he handled 1♦).

[thepossum]

I don't care what systems people play.
If anyone knows any fun clubs with fun people in the hood let me know lol

[jillybean]

Aren't the Aussies, like the Kiwis, allowed to play anything in their clubs. Multi 2D's and the like.
Congress @ Surfers

That's got to be fun.

[sfi]

 jillybean, on 2024-January-03, 22:51, said:

Aren't the Aussies, like the Kiwis, allowed to play anything in their clubs. Multi 2D's and the like.
Congress @ Surfers

That's got to be fun.

Basically yes. There are significant restrictions on yellow systems, but almost none on brown sticker conventions and other systems. And you can even play yellow systems at most major events. Our trials for the national teams allow fewer systems than most other events.

And yes, it is fun. Come to the Gold Coast Congress and spend a week at the best tournament in the world.

[jillybean]

Why would there be restrictions on your national teams events?

[sfi]

 jillybean, on 2024-January-03, 22:57, said:

Why would there be restrictions on your national teams events?

Because they have to go off and play under WBF regulations, so we adopt the same restrictions. Which means no yellow systems or brown sticker conventions, although I thought there were times you could play those at the World Championships. Maybe just in the later stages.

It makes sense since you don't want a pair winning due to a system they can't use when representing, but it feels silly given what we're used to.

[jillybean]

 sfi, on 2024-January-03, 23:02, said:

Because they have to go off and play under WBF regulations, so we adopt the same restrictions. Which means no yellow systems or brown sticker conventions, although I thought there were times you could play those at the World Championships. Maybe just in the later stages.

It makes sense since you don't want a pair winning due to a system they can't use when representing, but it feels silly given what we're used to.

Thanks Good to know, I'm surprised WBF International events have such restrictions.

[sfi]

 jillybean, on 2024-January-03, 23:04, said:

Thanks Good to know, I'm surprised WBF International events have such restrictions.

So are many people. Others think system innovation is not "bridge as we know it" and poor little international reps shouldn't have to face such monstrosities.

But I may be biased in my presentation of the two sides of the argument.

[helene_t]

My experience from New Zealand is that the mediocre players almost universally play Acol, while the better players play either Acol or various funny strong club systems. I don't recall ever having seen 2/1 in New Zealand. Nor Polish Club. Standard American I think I ran into on a single occasion.

One consequence of this is that there's almost no diffusion of modern bidding theory into the "improver" segments at the bridge clubs. Nobody local understands the theory of non-Acol natural bidding, and it's not like Acol can easily be improved by taking up ideas from Moscito and Antipodean Club.

2/1 will probably find its way to New Zealand with the growing exposure to international online bridge, but it may go a bit slower in New Zealand than elsewhere because of time zone difference.

And because of the "number 8 wire" mentality - Kiwis like locally produced bridge theory so they have a preference for SR over 2/1. I see the same tendencies in my own profession (statistics). Kiwi statisticians build a lot on locally developed theory and software. In a way its a good thing - New Zealand produces World-class statistical software, probably because there is a local market that works as a nursery until they are ready to concur the World. One could hope that New Zealand bidding systems will concur the World (I personally like strong club better than 2/1) but it probably won't happen. A couple of top Dutch pairs play SR so maybe there's hope.

[sfi]

 helene_t, on 2024-January-03, 23:18, said:

My experience from New Zealand is that the mediocre players almost universally play Acol, while the better players play either Acol or various funny strong club systems. I don't recall ever having seen 2/1 in New Zealand.

I took a look at the system cards for Marrakech. NZ sent 3 teams, so 9 pairs. 5 played 2/1, two played Acol, there was one strong NT 5-card majors but not 2/1, and one pair played strong club. This is more 2/1 than I was expecting given my limited experience in NZ.

[DavidKok]

 sfi, on 2024-January-03, 23:02, said:

Because they have to go off and play under WBF regulations, so we adopt the same restrictions. Which means no yellow systems or brown sticker conventions, although I thought there were times you could play those at the World Championships. Maybe just in the later stages.

I think you can still play a limited number of brown sticker conventions under WBF rules at certain levels. It is allowed in the Dutch competition as well as during the later rounds of the Bermuda Bowl, and presumably in other events (I never checked). The team has to submit a request to play these treatments ahead of time so that some committee can evaluate them, and also I think you concede seating rights. Historically the Dutch team has been one of the few making use of this rule. We have the same rule in competition here: you are allowed several (I think up to three?) brown sticker conventions in our competitions provided you submit a request ahead of time, and are allowed basically an unlimited amount in club play as people just think it's fun.

[sfi]

 DavidKok, on 2024-January-04, 02:59, said:

I think you can still play a limited number of brown sticker conventions under WBF rules at certain levels. It is allowed in the Dutch competition as well as during the later rounds of the Bermuda Bowl, and presumably in other events (I never checked). The team has to submit a request to play these treatments ahead of time so that some committee can evaluate them, and also I think you concede seating rights.

You're pretty much spot on - the WBF Systems Policy covers it. Basically, you only get to play yellow systems or brown sticker conventions at the knockout stages of the major events. There is a Category 2 which allows for three Brown Sticker conventions, as you describe in Dutch competition. I don't know when the WBF uses that classification though.

[shyams]

 sfi, on 2024-January-03, 23:32, said:

I took a look at the system cards for Marrakech. NZ sent 3 teams, so 9 pairs. 5 played 2/1, two played Acol, there was one strong NT 5-card majors but not 2/1, and one pair played strong club. This is more 2/1 than I was expecting given my limited experience in NZ.

My observation is not about ACOL vs 2/1 per se. When I saw this post, it felt a bit disheartening that the NZ stars have been beaten down by "the man" to abandon their adventures with unusual systems.

NZ (and AUS) were well known in the past for forcing pass systems, innovative conventions, fert bids, etc. I guess top pros from the two countries (who also play in NABCs for $$$s) were squeezed out of their innovations and endplayed into adopting "standard" systems.

[DavidKok]

I personally find that there is a lot of room to explore interesting treatments all while staying within the rules. Preemptive bids can be made on four card suits, but most pro players prefer six or sometimes five. A billion strong club and strong diamond treatments aren't just legal but get an advantage over other systems when it comes to regulations. You can play nearly any piping hot garbage you want for overcalls and responses. As an alternative explanation to money and constricting regulations I'd suggest that maybe a lot of those inventions are not as good as they may seem, and are therefore underrepresented at the international level.

I really think there is a lot of room left to innovate. Personally I make a habit to try new ideas even if I think they don't have bridge merit, and I have played tons of systems as a result. From my perspective it seems that people simply don't have a desire to try something new.

[thepossum]

 jillybean, on 2024-January-03, 22:51, said:

Aren't the Aussies, like the Kiwis, allowed to play anything in their clubs. Multi 2D's and the like.
Congress @ Surfers

That's got to be fun.

I remember being disappointed trying to find a group to play with - they were just starting out - and they said their club all played Standard American lol
- just starting out with tables full of tomes too double lol

I play Basic <insert one of few well known systems here>

To me funn means - hello, how are you, oh you play Bridge, you looking for a partner for the night