[jillybean]

---

[mikeh]

Good problem, several issues.

I’ll hold off giving my thoughts other than to say that I think you need to consider a range of questions, some simpler than others

Is 3S forcing? (I have views on all of these)

If he raises to 4S, I assume we keycard. What do we do if he shows one? What if he shows two but denies the queen? Are we sure partner will know what we’re doing?

If he bids 3N over 3S, what do we do….plan the auction…is there, in real life, a way to ask for keycards in clubs over anything he may do if we pull to 4C?

Would pulling to 4C be forcing?

If we think that bidding spades may create insoluble problems should he act inconveniently, can we give up on spades and focus on clubs? If so, how?

Finally, what is the form of scoring? It probably doesn’t much matter.

[jillybean]

mikeh, on 2023-April-15, 19:28, said:

Is 3S forcing? (I have views on all of these)

Undiscussed, I think it should be. We play 1C:2S weak

mikeh, on 2023-April-15, 19:28, said:

If he raises to 4S, I assume we keycard. What do we do if he shows one? What if he shows two but denies the queen? Are we sure partner will know what we’re doing?

If he shows one I may have a heart and club losers and I will stop in 5, if he shows two -Q I will be happy in 6. But why spades, why are we not probing for a club slam?

mikeh, on 2023-April-15, 19:28, said:

If he bids 3N over 3S, what do we do….plan the auction…is there, in real life, a way to ask for keycards in clubs over anything he may do if we pull to 4C?

We have no method of asking for keycards in clubs once he bids 3NT, I tried to play kickback but none of my partners do

mikeh, on 2023-April-15, 19:28, said:

Would pulling to 4C be forcing?

1C (P) 1S (X)
2C (3H) 4C it must be forcing but it is undiscussed

mikeh, on 2023-April-15, 19:28, said:

If we think that bidding spades may create insoluble problems should he act inconveniently, can we give up on spades and focus on clubs? If so, how?

This is the reason for my post. I will hold off answering this. I bid 4NT keycard for clubs

mikeh, on 2023-April-15, 19:28, said:

Finally, what is the form of scoring? It probably doesn’t much matter.

MP

[mw64ahw]

5NT - does pick a slam work here?

[LBengtsson]

mw64ahw, on 2023-April-15, 23:32, said:

5NT - does pick a slam work here?

I am in your camp with this, in that you can go all scientific trying to find the right contract without success - the opps are likely to make your life difficult also - so I would just bid 6♣ here. Yes, it might depend on a finesse, partner might have opened and rebid 2♣ without a ace in his hand - **** happens

I doubt if partner can bid 6♠ himself after 5NT, so I do not think 5NT would work here but you know of the ♣ fit so I would bid what I think we can make - 6♣. If other pairs end up in 6♠ at MPs, well maybe the slow approach of bidding 3♠ here (as long as it is forcing) might be better but who knows. Sometimes you have to take a reasonable gamble at this game.

[Cyberyeti]

I'm not in this spot I suspect because I started 1♣-2♠. I could also get myself out of it with 4♦ kickback. I would prefer blackwood to 5N, at least I get to find out if partner has the AKA I need for 7.

[sfi]

jillybean, on 2023-April-15, 20:13, said:

I bid 4NT keycard for clubs

After some discussion, we agreed that 4D would be kickback for clubs here. So that’s my vote.

[pescetom]

sfi, on 2023-April-16, 00:35, said:

After some discussion, we agreed that 4D would be kickback for clubs here. So that’s my vote.

In the partnership where we play Crosswood 4D looks automatic.

[DavidKok]

What's the likely distribution around the table? Does 2♣ promise 6 (I think it should), or can partner still have e.g. a 1=3=4=5 or even 1=4=3=5? The opponents are being awfully quiet with their double red suit fit (of which East has full knowledge).

I'm really quite worried. A priori a 1=(43)=5 hand is one of the most likely hand types, and it would also explain the lack of aggressive interference. If this shape is not ruled out by partnership agreement I'm worried partner may have that hand type, and even with two key cards I'm not sure we have time to set up the spades (imagine they split 4-2 and we get a diamond lead, or heart ace into a diamond switch) in 6♣. That sixth club seems important.

I don't know what the percentage action is if that shape is still possible. 4♣ into some keycard asking tool on the next round would probably work fine, presumably we are going to six opposite 2 key cards so 4NT 1430 works well even without minor-/optional-/red-/crosswood/kickback. If partner promises six clubs I feel confident we have the playing strength for (at least) the 6-level, and we just need to check for key cards.

mw64ahw, on 2023-April-15, 23:32, said:

5NT - does pick a slam work here?

A blame transfer?

[mikeh]

DavidKok, on 2023-April-16, 09:07, said:

What's the likely distribution around the table? Does 2♣ promise 6 (I think it should), or can partner still have e.g. a 1=3=4=5 or even 1=4=3=5? The opponents are being awfully quiet with their double red suit fit (of which East has full knowledge).

I'm really quite worried. A priori a 1=(43)=5 hand is one of the most likely hand types, and it would also explain the lack of aggressive interference. If this shape is not ruled out by partnership agreement I'm worried partner may have that hand type, and even with two key cards I'm not sure we have time to set up the spades (imagine they split 4-2 and we get a diamond lead, or heart ace into a diamond switch) in 6♣. That sixth club seems important.

I don't know what the percentage action is if that shape is still possible. 4♣ into some keycard asking tool on the next round would probably work fine, presumably we are going to six opposite 2 key cards so 4NT 1430 works well even without minor-/optional-/red-/crosswood/kickback. If partner promises six clubs I feel confident we have the playing strength for (at least) the 6-level, and we just need to check for key cards.

A blame transfer?

I don’t understand this

The opps are far from quiet

LHO doubled 1S, showing the red suits. RHO, limited by his failure to overcall, just jumped to 3H. The opps have announced 9+ hearts. LHO has yet to limit his hand in any way.

I would be very surprised if partner held a weak 5 card club suit. Nobody held a gun to his head to make him bid…1S was a force but the double removed the force.

What he should bid with, say, x KJx QJxx KJxxx, assuming that’s an opening bid, is an interesting question but I don’t think 2C would be my choice.

I’d expect something like x Jxx KQx AJxxxx on a bad day. Now slam is on a hook through the stronger hand (where RHO’s failure to bid 1H over 1C strengthens the odds of the king being onside)

On a good day, Qx Axx xx AKJxxx

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2023-April-15, 20:13, said:

Undiscussed, I think it should be. We play 1C:2S weak



If he shows one I may have a heart and club losers and I will stop in 5, if he shows two -Q I will be happy in 6. But why spades, why are we not probing for a club slam?



We have no method of asking for keycards in clubs once he bids 3NT, I tried to play kickback but none of my partners do




1C (P) 1S (X)
2C (3H) 4C it must be forcing but it is undiscussed



This is the reason for my post. I will hold off answering this. I bid 4NT keycard for clubs


MP

If we bid 3S and partner raises, we keycard

If he has one, we really should not give up. It would be a shame to miss slam if he has Qx xxx xxx AKJxx and he has more than that…that’s not even an opening bid, let alone a 2C rebid.

No, we ask for the spade queen….if he has it, he’ll show us a side king or two. The odds are very high that he has the club king. If he denies the spade queen, we bid 6C. He can usually pull trump and ruff the spade suit home.

The problem with being unable to ask for keycards after he bids 3N over our 3S is the main reason to consider giving up on spades.

Pulling to 4C (by which I meant we pull 3N to 4C, having bid 3S….not bidding 4C over 3H) is forcing in bridge logic, but we’d need to get lucky thereafter…if he bid a red suit as a cue then 4N should be keycard

4D over 3N should be kickback if you play it but that requires an agreement that few non expert pairs have (and many expert pairs lack).

Btw, bidding 4C over 3H should not, imo, be forcing. While in my partnerships our metarule is that 4m is forcing, that applies only in auctions where we’ve already established a force or wher we jump to 4m. A typical example is (2S) x (p) 4m.

I think 4N over 3H is a crude implement…the English might call it an agricultural bid…but it is the sensible choice. It abandons spades, so the fact that it’s matchpoints is an argument against it but 7C making is better than 6S making and I’m doubtful of our ability to reach grand if we focus on spades…..we basically need magic cards from partner and, while he may hold them, Bob Hamman is known for saying ‘don’t play me for magic cards…I don’t have them’

[mikeh]

mw64ahw, on 2023-April-15, 23:32, said:

5NT - does pick a slam work here?

I can see the argument that it should but……

You haven’t shown more than 4 spades. Partner will usually hold only one or two spades. It would take an extremely trusting partner to bid 6S on Qx xxx Kx AKJxxx

Worse…you may have a laydown grand. xx Axx xx AKJxxx

5N gives up on grand and I don’t understand why we’d do that even if we trusted partner to bid spades on Qx over 5N.

What else could 5N be? Depends on whether we play exclusion. I do but not everyone does. Say we held this hand but with void Ax in the reds. We’d want to be in 7C opposite any hand that has AK of clubs. But the giving up on grand is my main reason for rejecting 5N.

[DavidKok]

mikeh, on 2023-April-16, 09:59, said:

I don’t understand this

The opps are far from quiet

LHO doubled 1S, showing the red suits. RHO, limited by his failure to overcall, just jumped to 3H. The opps have announced 9+ hearts. LHO has yet to limit his hand in any way.

They don't just have hearts. They also have diamonds. If we give partner 6 clubs they have at minimum a 9-card fit and an 8-card fit in the two reds and almost no wasted values in clubs. What's more, if we give West a standard 5-4, Esat knows that there is no wastage and a double fit. So why aren't they bidding at the 4-level?

mikeh, on 2023-April-16, 09:59, said:

I would be very surprised if partner held a weak 5 card club suit. Nobody held a gun to his head to make him bid…1S was a force but the double removed the force.

What he should bid with, say, x KJx QJxx KJxxx, assuming that’s an opening bid, is an interesting question but I don’t think 2C would be my choice.

I’d expect something like x Jxx KQx AJxxxx on a bad day. Now slam is on a hook through the stronger hand (where RHO’s failure to bid 1H over 1C strengthens the odds of the king being onside)

On a good day, Qx Axx xx AKJxxx

I completely agree, and feel optimistic about slam facing what I think 2♣ should show.

[nullve]

Form of scoring?
Did 2♣ deny three spades?

1♣-(p)-1♠-(X)
2♣-(3♥)-?

Calls with their IMO default meanings:

P = unable to compete (duh)
X = takeout (a misnomer, since partner shouldn't take out without extra shape)
3♠/4♣ = competitive, NF (you can't afford to play these as GF, especially not at MP)
3N = strong suggestion, rarely taken out
4♦ = NAT GF (although I can imagine a pair like Brink - Drijver using the bid as SI+ with 6+ S, or maybe 4♦/♥ as SI+ w/ C SUPP/6+ S, resp.)
4♥ = GF C raise, does not promise a heart control
...4♠ = S control (although I've recenty seen a pair (Brink - Drijver again?) playing what seemed like proxy cuebids in a similar situation, so that e.g. 4♠ = control in opps' suit, hearts)
...(...)
4♠/5♣ = to play
4N = RKC(♣) (there are probably better uses, but...)
5♦/5♥ = ERKC(♣)
5♠ = NAT SI, likely no H control (the #1 reason to torture partner with this bid)
5N = pick a slam
6♣ = to play, could be a sacrfice

I'd bid 4N.

[mikeh]

DavidKok, on 2023-April-16, 10:56, said:

They don't just have hearts. They also have diamonds. If we give partner 6 clubs they have at minimum a 9-card fit and an 8-card fit in the two reds and almost no wasted values in clubs. What's more, if we give West a standard 5-4, Esat knows that there is no wastage and a double fit. So why aren't they bidding at the 4-level?

I completely agree, and feel optimistic about slam facing what I think 2♣ should show.

Maybe because the unlimited hand has the 4 level values? RHO, for example, might have Qx Jxxxx Kxxx xx

Now, I wouldn’t bid 3H on that…2H is enough imo, but maybe LHO has xx AKxx QJxxx xx. That gives partner Jx Qxx xxx AKJxx, less than most people’s opening bid, let alone 2C.

We do hold 13 hcp and our partner opened and rebid.so I still don’t understand why you think the opps should be bouncing to the 4 level with a combined 14 count or so at nobody vulnerable. It’s not as if they know we have slam ambitions…heck, they don’t know we have even game values.

[jillybean]

2♣ should deny 3 spades, XX is a support double showing 3 card spade support

---

2♣ should be 6
I decided to give up on spades, clubs appeared to be the easier auction, safer contract and I have a better idea of what we hold in clubs.
Insisting on spades seemed like going off into the abyss. 6♣= on a non spade lead and East is unlikely to find the spade lead. (fingers crossed)

Q♥ led

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2023-April-16, 12:29, said:

2♣ should deny 3 spades, XX is a support double showing 3 card spade support

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2♣ should be 6
I decided to give up on spades, clubs appeared to be the easier auction, safer contract and I have a better idea of what we hold in clubs.
Insisting on spades seemed like going off into the abyss. 6♣= on a non spade lead and East is unlikely to find the spade lead. (fingers crossed)

How are you planning on making 6C even without a spade lead?

Btw, if west doubled for the lead, which seems reasonable just looking at his hand, either north or south can run, whether to 6N or 6S matters not…it’s cold on the marked double finesse

Btw, I’ve been looking for a chance to fake a Lightner double on something like a stiff queen behind what’s known to be a long, strong suit. Hasn’t happened yet, and I’d probably chicken out anyway😀
Also, I think it an error to play that 2C denies 3 spades. The way I play support doubles is that 2C would tend to deny 3 spades but I expect partner to rebid clubs with 6+ good clubs and shape, rather than show me xxx. We need to plan ahead. The support double often catches partner with a four card suit and we may miss our 6=2 or occasionally 6=3 or 7=2 club fit if we double and the opps bid.

[jillybean]

mikeh, on 2023-April-16, 12:45, said:

How are you planning on making 6C even without a spade lead?

♥Q 8 A 5, what can West return to set the contract?
♦ return
♣A, pull trump,playing high card from dummy, ending in hand

Play spades, oh, double dummy. (edited many times trying to make the contract)

East pitched a ♠ on the second club in the play

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[jillybean]

mikeh, on 2023-April-16, 12:45, said:

Btw, if west doubled for the lead, which seems reasonable just looking at his hand, either north or south can run, whether to 6N or 6S matters not…it’s cold on the marked double finesse

Btw, I’ve been looking for a chance to fake a Lightner double on something like a stiff queen behind what’s known to be a long, strong suit. Hasn’t happened yet, and I’d probably chicken out anyway��
Also, I think it an error to play that 2C denies 3 spades. The way I play support doubles is that 2C would tend to deny 3 spades but I expect partner to rebid clubs with 6+ good clubs and shape, rather than show me xxx. We need to plan ahead. The support double often catches partner with a four card suit and we may miss our 6=2 or occasionally 6=3 or 7=2 club fit if we double and the opps bid.

6♠ East makes the Lightner double, West leads ♣9

It does look like a good hand for a Lightner double, if both partners remember what it is.
I agree with what you say about 2♣, my partner made the right bid.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2023-April-16, 15:16, said:

♥Q 8 A 5, what can West return to set the contract?
♦ return
♣A, pull trump,playing high card from dummy, ending in hand
Return to hand with ♣
Play spades, oh, double dummy

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You can’t test spades and make. You have to take the double finesse from the go, and there is simply no reason to get this right. I’d never make, absent a Lightner and pulling to spades.