BBO Discussion Forums: one of dummy's cards is hidden - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

one of dummy's cards is hidden

#1 User is offline   pilun 

  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 94
  • Joined: 2007-February-23

Posted 2023-March-15, 01:45

This happens quite often.

6/S on a diamond lead.
Dummy spreads 12 cards including a singleton diamond.
3rd hand wins the A from AQxx and leads something else.

Declarer has the rest.
At some stage (does it matter when?) dummy's hidden K makes an appearance.

Is is +1430 or -100?
0

#2 User is offline   sanst 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 772
  • Joined: 2014-July-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Deventer, The Netherlands

Posted 2023-March-15, 02:42

Can’t be answered that simple. Read Law 14B. The card is deemed to have belonged continuously to the deficient hand. If it wasn’t played when diamonds were led, is’s an established revoke, otherwise te result stands.
An established revoke by the dummy doesn’t carry an automatic trick adjustment(Law 64B4), but if the NOS is damaged by the revoke, the director should award an adjusted score.
It doesn’t matter when the missing card is discovered or were it was hiding, in the hand, the board or somewhere else.
Joost
0

#3 User is offline   pilun 

  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 94
  • Joined: 2007-February-23

Posted 2023-March-15, 03:23

View Postsanst, on 2023-March-15, 02:42, said:

Canít be answered that simple. Read Law 14B. The card is deemed to have belonged continuously to the deficient hand. If it wasnít played when diamonds were led, isís an established revoke, otherwise te result stands.
An established revoke by the dummy doesnít carry an automatic trick adjustment(Law 64B4), but if the NOS is damaged by the revoke, the director should award an adjusted score.
It doesnít matter when the missing card is discovered or were it was hiding, in the hand, the board or somewhere else.


Assume no revoke.
That is, declarer draws trumps and claims 12 top tricks, which may - or may not - include the emerging K.
0

#4 User is offline   mycroft 

  • Secretary Bird
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,665
  • Joined: 2003-July-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Calgary, Canada

Posted 2023-March-15, 08:57

In addition to what sanst says about Law 14 (and potentially 64B), in the ACBL at least, our style is to protect the defence from these kinds of mistakes. So if it were the Q that got found, say, we'd allow RHO to cash the K after the A and set the contract. In other words, at least here, "everyone is responsible for dummy" is another one of those folk legends that has incomplete basis in Law.

This would also apply in the OPs case where RHO had AQxx (and declarer doesn't have a singleton) - if dummy was laid out correctly, the defender would never have played the A, and the defence is given two tricks.

Dummy has violated Law 41D, and induced a misplay from the defence from the "miscommunication". It's not 47E2b (because not a) but we treat it the same way. A technical reading of 12C1a might disallow it as well, but shouldn't, in my view (and in the ACBL's view) [Edit: but 12A1 may.]

Y[RA's]MMV. Check with them.

Two of my "firsts" came from this:
  • My first appeal (okay, the first appeal where I was the table director, I gave the DIC's ruling) was on a mislaid dummy where, if all cards had been shown, the "zero%" line of play the life novice defenders took would have been obviously zero % even to that defender;
  • Declarer, in 6, ruffed the opening spade lead, and in an 11 card fit off the KQ, called for the trump ace. When pulling that card out, the A was discovered behind. Yes, the KQ crashed, and declarer made 7. Yes, revoke, yes, established, no penalty for failure to play a "faced" card, equity is "win the A, play the A, crash the KQ, make 7", there's nothing the defence can be protected from. At least 3 tables in the session called me over to be shown the Law.


Having said all of that (especially the "isn't clear from the Laws" bit), it's time for another email to the Committee to clarify what happens if dummy does violate 41D.
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
0

#5 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,021
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2023-March-15, 12:00

View Postmycroft, on 2023-March-15, 08:57, said:

In addition to what sanst says about Law 14 (and potentially 64B), in the ACBL at least, our style is to protect the defence from these kinds of mistakes. So if it were the Q that got found, say, we'd allow RHO to cash the K after the A and set the contract. In other words, at least here, "everyone is responsible for dummy" is another one of those folk legends that has incomplete basis in Law.

This would also apply in the OPs case where RHO had AQxx (and declarer doesn't have a singleton) - if dummy was laid out correctly, the defender would never have played the A, and the defence is given two tricks.

Dummy has violated Law 41D, and induced a misplay from the defence from the "miscommunication". It's not 47E2b (because not a) but we treat it the same way. A technical reading of 12C1a might disallow it as well, but shouldn't, in my view (and in the ACBL's view) [Edit: but 12A1 may.]

Y[RA's]MMV. Check with them.


Interesting, I had not spotted this hole in the Laws before.

I never liked the way Law 12A is written, because it first sets the bar at "when these laws empower him to do so" but then goes on to say this includes (?) situations where the Law does not provide rectification. Which is sort of a logical short-circuit, but nevertheless I take it as allowing me to award an adjusted score here on the basis that 41D does not provide the rectification which I judge due (what else could 12A1 be intended to mean?).
So I will put it to my RA (thanks) but I know what I would do in the meantime (same as you).
0

#6 User is offline   jillybean 

  • hooked
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,872
  • Joined: 2003-November-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:NZ
  • Interests:Bridge, swimming, travel, it varies

Posted 2023-March-15, 12:17

 mycroft, on 2023-March-15, 08:57, said:

In addition to what sanst says about Law 14 (and potentially 64B), in the ACBL at least, our style is to protect the defence from these kinds of mistakes. So if it were the Q that got found, say, we'd allow RHO to cash the K after the A and set the contract. In other words, at least here, "everyone is responsible for dummy" is another one of those folk legends that has incomplete basis in Law.

Really! I have had a couple of rulings where a Director has "quoted" this. These Directors never carry law books.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH
0

#7 User is offline   mycroft 

  • Secretary Bird
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,665
  • Joined: 2003-July-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Calgary, Canada

Posted 2023-March-15, 12:19

I still remember one year (in a NAP qualifier, if I remember correctly), where they called the TD over after the play in 3 to complain that partner had put down a 12-card dummy - in fact, one of the trumps was completely covered by another.

I pointed out that if I knew I had had a 10-card trump suit instead of a 9-, I wouldn't have pulled the third round of trumps and would have made another trick. So the only one damaged was me. And the director[*] said "well, we don't protect *you* from your partner's dumb mistakes." Not that I expected they would, I was just pointing out that the opponents were definitely not damaged!

[*] who had a reputation for these kinds of phrasings of rulings. I miss him still, and wish I could pull off what he could sometimes.
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
0

#8 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,021
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2023-March-19, 11:12

As promised I put it to my RA, first response: no adjustment, "everyone is responsible for the dummy".
There are higher Oracles I could confront, but I think I'll leave it for now as there are bigger fish to fry (scoring app, screens online, comparable call...).
0

#9 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,370
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2023-March-19, 23:45

It seems the ACBL isnít the only RA where you canít be sure youíll get correct answers to your questions.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#10 User is offline   jillybean 

  • hooked
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,872
  • Joined: 2003-November-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:NZ
  • Interests:Bridge, swimming, travel, it varies

Posted 2023-March-20, 00:31

View Postblackshoe, on 2023-March-19, 23:45, said:

It seems the ACBL isnít the only RA where you canít be sure youíll get correct answers to your questions.

The undiscussed pandemic.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH
0

#11 User is offline   mycroft 

  • Secretary Bird
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,665
  • Joined: 2003-July-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Calgary, Canada

Posted 2023-March-20, 09:30

They might be right - in Italy.

I don't like it; especially if there is no consequence to the slam-makers. Learning that "accidents" can lead to 0% contracts making with the Law saying "all good" leads to more accidents. Not that anybody would do that on purpose, oh no. But it's another one of those convenient places where "not taking care" or "taking liberties with the Law" leads to all-upside (like my other bugbear about "run the diamonds").

So I'm happy that in the ACBL, we protect the defence from violations of 41D. I'm also interested to note RA-level (or at least "received wisdom" in different RAs) disagreements - given that that was one of the points I made to the LC in my submission (that this should be spelled out actually in the Law, one way or the other).
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
0

#12 User is offline   mycroft 

  • Secretary Bird
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,665
  • Joined: 2003-July-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Calgary, Canada

Posted 2023-March-20, 10:58

I just did what I should have done the first time: checked the Commentary. And it seems to be on the ACBL's side here (my emphasis):

Quote

Law 41D has been made more specific about the way dummy spreads his hand. The lengthwise columns in descending order must now each be separate from one another.

Note that only the declaring side is responsible for the correctness of the dummy's hand. For instance, the defenders have no obligation to observe that dummy has too few or too many cards, or that the dummy has played a card not designated by declarer.


But again, no specific "how do we handle it if dummy's presentation leads the defence into a misplay".

[Edit to add]Another quote from the commentary gets us a better idea of what the WBFLC wants us to do here (from "12A1 vs 12A2", again my emphasis):

Quote

An example of applying Law 12A1 is the following: declarer asks dummy to play the spade ten at trick 3. Dummy picks up that card but then leaves it face up on the table and it is still there at trick 10. If this creates confusion and induces an error from the defenders, there is now sufficient reason to adjust the score using Law 12A1.

When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
0

#13 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,021
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2023-March-20, 13:23

View Postmycroft, on 2023-March-20, 10:58, said:

I just did what I should have done the first time: checked the Commentary. And it seems to be on the ACBL's side here (my emphasis):



But again, no specific "how do we handle it if dummy's presentation leads the defence into a misplay".

[Edit to add]Another quote from the commentary gets us a better idea of what the WBFLC wants us to do here (from "12A1 vs 12A2", again my emphasis):

I vaguely remembered that, thanks, and of course I agree anyway with your previous reasoning about why Declarer should not be allowed to keep this score.

I will put this on a back burner but not forget, soon we meet in Salsomaggiore and I'll try to figure out if there is a consensus.
In any case the gap in the Laws should be filled (and 12A rephrased a bit too).
0

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users