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how to bid this hand

#21 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2023-February-20, 01:07

"So while I disagree with 3D, after 1D 1S 2C, I think itís a plausible action. I see it as second best, but Iím not banging the drum claiming that 2N is Ďperfectí." Yes the days when Justin posted here, as well as some strong players are long gone. Atul still posts but very rarely and I have not seen Gonzalo post in forever. Pity. BW is an ok substitute

This is bridge, Mike. Nothing is ever perfect. Yes it is sad about the Possum.

"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#22 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2023-February-20, 07:03

View Postthe hog, on 2023-February-19, 23:50, said:

"I don't think it's clear 3♦ is better than 2N with this shape, partner bids 3♠ anyway, now it's a tossup (sic) which game you bid." You may not think it is clear - I on the other hand think it is 100% clear. Responder has sharp cards. Axx opposite a stiff is excellent for a suit contract and poor for NTs. Give Responder KJT of Hearts and you have a point.As it is, give Sth an extra D and one spade less and we are in slam territory.


And that's why you end up in a 5 contract that is the third best game going off whenever the diamonds don't break unless you're lucky and guess right which singleton W has. xxx is not good support when you might well have 4 for this bid. We play inv+ inverted minors which may contain 4M, so it would be known to be 3 cards unless you have 5+ spades for us.
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#23 User is online   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2023-February-20, 10:14

This is the sort of hand where playing an unbalanced can help and one of the reason I moved away from better minor. There are a variety of approaches, but my GI Esoteric Unbalanced makes life easier and removes some of the guesswork, so
1 (3+) - 1 GI
1NT 5+4+3x - 2 4+ not GF
2 3 - 3 3+
Now opener is in a better place to decide on subsequent actions from Pass/Correct to asking for a stopper which can double as a control bid to setting the final contract.

Without this it's a choice between 2NT and 3 depending on partnership agreement
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#24 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2023-February-20, 23:47

Well that is a very silly comment isn't it? Take away the knave of C and add it to D or S and you have 8 tricks and need to pick up the Ds. or find some luck elsewhere.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#25 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2023-February-21, 03:33

View Postthe hog, on 2023-February-20, 23:47, said:

Well that is a very silly comment isn't it? Take away the knave of C and add it to D or S and you have 8 tricks and need to pick up the Ds. or find some luck elsewhere.


As you do in 5 if the extra J is in diamonds, you have 3 potential losers (spade, 4th club, diamond) 4 is still a passable contract without J, 3N needs a bit of luck. 5 meanwhile is down to picking up the QJ if W has 4 diamonds.

The problem with 3 is that partner with KQ, K, Qxxxxx, AQJx might feel that 5 is the right spot to aim for once you decline to bid 2N when you're simply cashing 9 without touching the diamonds.
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#26 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2023-February-24, 01:28

Deleted my defence in the spirit of keeping the thread on topic and brief (you can probably read it elsewhere)- I apologise for sometimes over-reacting and being over-sensitive - lets not keep unncecessary conflicts going :) If you are a self-critical and self-conscious person jumping on them is unnecessary. I will ignore any and all misrepresentations of me despite having the right to and almost the obligation to. Seemingly they are never ending. I am not going to play that game anymore or be controlled into it endlessly. I have retreated. Up to everyone else and to understand misrepresentation (including misattribution) in all its forms. They do need to be put right but I will stop doing it every time. Some of us have been on the receiving end of the most extreme forms of misrepresentation for decades which we are trying to put right (for ourselves and the well-being of others). You have to pick your battles carefully. Then again not fighting back sometimes is even worse. Also in my extensive personal and professional experience it is often those who appear to have behavioural problems who the gentle victims of others. Let the gaslighters and defamers do so and so called experts and authorities get it wrong without any challenges or justice. They win anyway. They manipulate your behaviour one way or another

But I come here for intelligent conversation and exchange of views on Bridge with other players, some of whom are experts. Remarkably I actually listen to/read everyone's views :)

I stand by my original view on the hand and would likely have jumpshifted to 3C - interestingly that is what QPlus 2/1 does

I would have considered a reverse but lets not go there

And I never intend any disrespect to anyone on here

I will always try to find the best bid available at the time, and if being disciplined means that my partner understands what I am doing will hope I have a partner with the same philosophy and understanding in case they need to explain it - but my approach will be on my card :)

One of the things I like about online Bridge (and other forms) is that I can self-explain to opps :)

You can see my cards if you like :)

On the subject of reverses, and maybe this isn't the thread to raise it, and I don't have a specific example, but I find the 2/1 system I am playing has some terrible required contortions that appear to make even less natural bids than the flexibility I try to use at times. You thought you could show your second good suit - sorry. If I have two suits I want to show them in as natural a way as possible
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#27 User is offline   Frank_lol_ 

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Posted 2023-February-24, 04:47

View Postthepossum, on 2023-February-19, 02:07, said:

There is nothing wrong with my bidding Jilly

Just a tip. Please don't join in with the office bully and suck up to him so much.

What is everyone's problem. Seemingly despite my knowledge and experience in Bridge everyone thinks they have the right to jump on a lecture me

Why. As I said. Sucking up to the bully. But he does need his ego stroked. Its very fragile. As all can see

I can do without your insults too. Who are you anyway?

Your arrival has been fairly recent in joining in with the gang. But maybe you should back off and so should everyone else from playing MikeH's pathetic game

Do you all need someone to target. I have experience of obnoxiousness in Bridge clubs. Fat chance I will ever set foot in another one

But sometimes I make the mistake of thinking I am mixing with other similar level profesionally minded and behaved people

Back to the bidding though. Jump shift is an excellent bid and 3NT is a fine contract. As good as 5D with fewer tricks

Go and lecture you children, not me

And I have dealt with tougher people than all of you put together so all back off please

And I have spent my life standing up to bullies, personally, professionally and at a industry level

I am also professionally trained in their psychology and how they operate

You do appear to be a newbie on the block but I am not the ignoramus on this site or in this world

Just polite advice and request. Try not to suck up to the office (or other) bully

Everyne in the world searching for my posts and looking for an oportunity. That is how it appears to any objective observer I would suggest

I have been playing Bridge for over 40 years. Different philosophy perhaps. Not so fascist

Time for everyone to be more aware of bullies, bullying and how they operate. Even how they like to gaslight and misrrepesent their target as a group

But look at what you wrote and all the implicit/explicit insults. Almost every word

None of you could come close to even imagining some of the hard nuts I have had to deal with and still am

NOTE This has been edited multiple times in case anyone has quoted any of it. Its easier and hard to deal with this incessant rubbish with a simple comment. I have not changed the sense of any of it. I will not be reading any reponses

But one final thing needs to be said. The people/power/institutions I am up against in this world will stop at nothing to gaslight me. Corruption stops at nothing to make the ethical person look like the problem. Don't do it here please

EDIT AGAIN. With more apologies but its more efficient and I am not changing anything people are commenting on. As have I said on other occurrences on this site Bridge and maybe these forums intersect with many of the industry and professional (and personal) issues I am fighting. So I apologise for any apparent sensitivity to any cases of possible gaslighting or intimidation. I hope you all get my drift by nw. The powers I am up against are immense and seemingly highly corrupt. But we never know who is who and who is on which side. We must always be mindful of that. Especially when people get upset. But it plays into some corrupt powers' hands. I don't seek forums out such as this to do anything other than discuss one of my interests which is Bridge. But when repeated behaviours from maybe the same perps manifest themeslves I need to call it out. At least 3 huge powerful groups intersect through Bridge and this forum. And I am up against all of them. The dodgy interests in all of them anyway. The behaviour is a repeated one in many ways. All I want to do is discuss the issues yet a bunch on a forum keep jumping on me, apparently specifically. As an intelligent questioning person I wonder what its all about and why it happens. If I look back thorugh my comments (unedited) on this thread alone all I see is someone discussing a Bridge hand yet being singled out again. I wonder who they all could be on these forums (online and real life). Same behaviour. Same obnoxious attitudes. The same I met in a Bridge club more than 30 years ago which put me off clubs forever. Some of us need some encouragemennt that not everyone in a Bridge club is obnoxious. Otherwise we are stuck with boring robots. A game I have always loved. Especially the social variety. Not safe to go a club. That is sad for a game. I have even had to knock back invitations from people important to me who really wanted me to go to their club because of the level of obnoxiousness I have personally experienced in clubs. So are they all going to change and become decent friendly people or not. I have to avoid clubs because of the unpleasantness I experienced. Possibly special experiences with special people in my life. All of you need to think about that and how your obnoxiousness affects people. And despite how it may appear in a pleasnat relaxed environment I am no slouch at a Bridge table. Well beyond your and Hargraves and others' incessant put downs and insults. I appreciate bullying is part of the game. That's how it appears to me anyway.

One final edit with apologies to everyone. I have good reason to feel (given my rather unique experience and background) that some people are almost intentionally singled out and sensitised tor react in such a way all the time. A lifetime of gaslighting and sensitisation. As I have said elsewhere I do not believe people become desensitised by hurt. That is a convenient myth. Yes. Like all of the convenient myths. No if anyone thinks. What on earth did I say or do. Maybe you need to know someone's whole life experience before asking


What. The. *****. Is. Happening.
(srr for the f word but its essential here)

People are just trying to give you advises, possum. I see nothing wrong with jilly's comments. Can you find me a sentence that attacked and bullied you?

I'm very, very new to this forum, but you've already given me that you are overrracting to every single comment about you. Maybe you should chill out a bit, and reread the comments that, in your opinion, are targeting your person, not your playing. Maybe you will find out that they are just giving their opinion/experience.

Hey, you don't need to act that aggresive to them. If they give you an advice that you won't accept, you can say something like:
Thanks for your advice, but I don't think it will work. I'll keep playing with my own convention/style for now.
That sounds a lot better.
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#28 User is offline   Frank_lol_ 

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Posted 2023-February-24, 04:55

Hey, seems like you don't like experts' advices.
I love that kind of spirit, not gonna lie. Improving by playing is as effective as reading books.
Who knows, maybe your bridging style will become popular in 50 years, like what happened in chess.
Oh, can I also give an advice?
If you wanna give your opinion, try to make short comments. It's really hard to scroll down 5 billion pages. Or just make a new post and wsrite an essay about it.
Wanna be friends? I feel like you are a really nice person who wants the world to be less toxic. I'm like that too, just that I'm not as aggressive.
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#29 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2023-March-01, 16:03

View PostFrank_lol_, on 2023-February-24, 04:55, said:

Hey, seems like you don't like experts' advices.
I love that kind of spirit, not gonna lie. Improving by playing is as effective as reading books.
Who knows, maybe your bridging style will become popular in 50 years, like what happened in chess.
Oh, can I also give an advice?
If you wanna give your opinion, try to make short comments. It's really hard to scroll down 5 billion pages. Or just make a new post and wsrite an essay about it.
Wanna be friends? I feel like you are a really nice person who wants the world to be less toxic. I'm like that too, just that I'm not as aggressive.

I spent my life working with experts Frank, many of them world class :)
Some are more comfortable and secure than others
But no more diversions please

Back to bridge :)
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#30 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2023-March-18, 15:57

I would hope that we can all agree that the proper start to this auction is 1 - 1 -- 2. After that, I suspect system comes into it. In traditional Acol, I am sure many would choose 2 at this point, which does not show anything more than an invite. Many others would regard Axx as sufficient for an immediate 2NT. Over 2, Opener is likely to bid 2 and now Responder bids 2NT. In most other major systems, 2 is game forcing so Responder has to choose between 2NT and 3. I am with Mike in preferring 2NT, not least because in these systems it does not promise a heart stop and 2 has not shown a 5th diamond. Either way, Opener's third call will be 3 to pattern out.

What happens after that is going to vary by judgement and system. In the Acol 2 sequence, Responder has specifically denied a good heart stopper, so bidding 3NT now more or less shows a hand like this one. It is not often that Acol gets to be more scientific than a 5cM system but this is a good auction for that method. In the Acol 2NT sequence, Responder has already overstated their hearts so not bidding 3NT over 3 is clear - 4 seems to be the most logical choice. In the systems where 2NT is nebulous about hearts (due to 4th suit forcing being GF) it is trickier. Here also I would expect 4 to be a popular choice but no doubt there will be many preferring 3NT with the 4333 shape despite the Axx. With a club level partner, I would be perfectly happy with any logical continuation that reached this point.
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#31 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2023-March-19, 03:41

1-1-2-2NT-3NT. :-)
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As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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#32 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2023-March-19, 04:49

A jump shift by opener is a game force. I don't see any reason to overdbid with this South hand. If north passes a 2cl rebid, he won't have more than 7 points. Now we could have missed game if north has five spades but it doesn't happen often. Meanwhile, we stay out of hopeless game contracts when north has a misfitting 5 points.

Also I am afraid that we will get too high on this hand if South rebids 3cl as north should make a slam try.
I rarely totally psych the bots - seems a bit cruel. But it can be fun from time to time --- thepossum
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#33 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2023-March-19, 05:38

4sp is an interesting contract, unless I am overlooking something. The only winning line I can see is to duck the heart lead and then duck a diamond in trick 3.

Sr nonsense, Cyberyeti is right of course
I rarely totally psych the bots - seems a bit cruel. But it can be fun from time to time --- thepossum
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#34 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2023-March-19, 06:12

View Posthelene_t, on 2023-March-19, 05:38, said:

4sp is an interesting contract, unless I am overlooking something. The only winning line I can see is to duck the heart lead and then duck a diamond in trick 3.


Take A
Ruff a heart
Club to K
Ruff a heart
K
2 more high clubs
when the club is ruffed you can use the 4th club as a surrogate trump

You score One heart, 2 heart ruffs, 2 high spades, 2 high clubs and 2 high diamonds for 9 and either more clubs or more trumps. Needs little more than spades 4-2
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#35 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2023-March-19, 08:17

View Posthelene_t, on 2023-March-19, 04:49, said:

If north passes a 2cl rebid, he won't have more than 7 points.

And he won't have the club king and a major-suit ace. Nor AQ of spades and the diamond jack.

And he _should_ not have the spade ace and the diamond queen.
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#36 User is online   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2023-March-19, 09:07

Historically I'd have bid 1-1-3-3NT 19 total points
Now playing an Unbalanced I'm likely to end up in trying for a slam on the way, although the flat hand may encourage 3NT.

If defending white versus red I play a NT takeout so not sure how the auction would go after that.
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#37 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2023-March-19, 12:40

View PostCyberyeti, on 2023-March-19, 06:12, said:

Take A
Ruff a heart
Club to K
Ruff a heart
K
2 more high clubs
when the club is ruffed you can use the 4th club as a surrogate trump

You score One heart, 2 heart ruffs, 2 high spades, 2 high clubs and 2 high diamonds for 9 and either more clubs or more trumps. Needs little more than spades 4-2

From Rubens's wonderful long-ago article on playing 4-3's: When in doubt, play on the side suit.
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