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Don’t be sloppy

#1 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2023-January-29, 16:26

I returned to club bridge on Saturday, plying only my second game in some 4-5 years. I played with a friend with whom I last played maybe 15 years ago.

I picked up Axx AQx AKJxxx x

I opened 1D and partner bid a game-force 2C. Planning ahead, I decided to bid 2N, expecting to raise 3N to 4 N if that happened.

Partner rebid 3C, I bid 3D, and then we had the 3N 4N 6N auction



The heart 10 ran around to my queen, and I was regretting not bidding grand. As is often the case, idle thoughts like that lead to poor play.

Plan the play.

Hint: obviously if either minor breaks normally, you claim at least thirteen tricks. I wouldn’t be posting this hand😀 well, maybe as a bidding problem but too many posters here ALWAYS reach the best single dummy contract once they see both hands.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#2 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2023-January-29, 16:39

It's matchpoints so we have to make the overtrick ?
I'm guessing there is a squeeze on the major suits when we run our minor suits. Off to the club, I'll give it more thought afterwards.
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#3 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2023-January-29, 16:50

View Postjillybean, on 2023-January-29, 16:39, said:

I'm guessing there is a squeeze on the major suits when we run our minor suits.

Agree. I would just make sure I don't play a club, since I'll need that as an entry. Cash everything else, ending in South, and hope one of the remaining suits is good.
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#4 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2023-January-29, 17:56

A nice hand! There's some interesting double squeeze plays (or single-played-as-double if the spades don't break 3-3) with West guarding clubs while East guards diamonds. In addition if either opponent holds 5-5 (or longer) in the minors but not exactly 0=3=5=5 their partner is subject to a major suit squeeze, while if either opponent holds a 0=3=5=5 we have a neat double squeeze (the double threat being the 4 of hearts). Thankfully all lines start the same way. I don't see how to take 13 tricks when West holds the diamonds while East holds the clubs, maybe there is some clever compound squeeze involving both majors.

P.S.: I'm cashing some clubs early, so I'm not sure we are thinking of the same lines.
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#5 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2023-January-29, 18:58

View PostDavidKok, on 2023-January-29, 17:56, said:

A nice hand! There's some interesting double squeeze plays (or single-played-as-double if the spades don't break 3-3) with West guarding clubs while East guards diamonds. In addition if either opponent holds 5-5 (or longer) in the minors but not exactly 0=3=5=5 their partner is subject to a major suit squeeze, while if either opponent holds a 0=3=5=5 we have a neat double squeeze (the double threat being the 4 of hearts). Thankfully all lines start the same way. I don't see how to take 13 tricks when West holds the diamonds while East holds the clubs, maybe there is some clever compound squeeze involving both majors.

P.S.: I'm cashing some clubs early, so I'm not sure we are thinking of the same lines.

I assume everyone starts by crossing to the diamond queen even if intending to try the clubs next

What do you pitch on the second club, to which east follows…..west is yet to play
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#6 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2023-January-29, 19:14

My line starts with diamond to the queen, club ace, club king pitching a diamond, spade to the ace (assuming one opponent, i.e. West, shows out on the second club). Then two high diamonds pitching a club and a spade. After that the lines diverge depending on which opponent showed out on the spades (6-0 splits can happen) or the diamonds.

Edit: nope, I think I messed it up. Sorry.
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#7 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2023-January-30, 00:11

View Postmikeh, on 2023-January-29, 18:58, said:

I assume everyone starts by crossing to the diamond queen even if intending to try the clubs next

What do you pitch on the second club, to which east follows…..west is yet to play

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#8 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2023-January-30, 04:01

All a bit above my pay grade
Cross to the Queen D. Obvious.
A few rounds of clubs
See how it goes
Depending what happens cross back and start on the diamonds
See what happens with diamonds and cross back
Hope to make at least 6NT - make sure of your 6
I believe I added up 12 tricks correctly. You hope maybe there is another one
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#9 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2023-January-30, 15:27

I think it clear to win the heart and cross to the diamond queen. You’re expecting to claim your overtrick very quickly, but when you cash two clubs, LHO shows out.

It’s important to foresee this, hence the title of the post.

What do you pitch, bearing in mind that you don’t know about the bad break until after you’ve made your discard?

Here one should always proceed by elimination.

If clubs break, we can throw anything not an honour. We have four majors, 4 diamond tops, and 6 clubs….for 14 winners. Heck, if clubs behave, we can throw an Ace!

So assume clubs don’t behave. We still have 8 tricks outside of diamonds so we don’t need that sixth diamond…..it’s an irrelevancy. Throwing it can never lose. Obviously it will rarely prove necessary but when a play has zero cost and may, even if in a way we can’t yet foresee, gain…then we make that play

Here, if both minors are bad, we need a squeeze to score the 13th trick, so we should keep our small cards in the majors.

We pitch a diamond and LHO disappoints us with a heart pitch.

What now?

Time to switch suits. While we had an easy discard last trick, next one isn’t as easy. If diamonds break, we need the fifth diamond.

So we cross back to hand. How?

If we are going to be squeezing one or both opps, we want to preserve our spade holding, so we cross in hearts.

Now test the diamonds, still expecting to claim. Ooops….RHO pitches the heart Jack.

Hmmmm

What do we know or what can we infer?

LHO led the heart 10. It’s highly unlikely that even a weak club player would lead away from a king. So it’s likely RHO started with KJx(x) of hearts. He has 5 clubs, one diamond, and we’re not sure how many spades.

But the heart Jack is perhaps a clue. A good player knows he can throw the Jack even if he started with KJxx since he knows his partner has length and the 9. But to still probable that he has exactly KJx in hearts, at the start. If so, he has 5 clubs, 1diamond and three hearts. That leaves him 4 spades

Since you have 7 spades between your hand and dummy, LHO has only two….and they fall under the AK.

That makes a squeeze on RHO very easy. Just cash two more diamonds. You have to make three discards from dummy. You can afford a club and the low spades over there aren’t doing you any good.

So you pitch down to Kx void void QJx, and in hand you have Axx x x void. If RHO had 4 spades, he’s been forced to unguard that suit in order to keep 109x in clubs. So you cross to the spade king, take your top clubs, and then take the last two tricks with the Ax of spades.

Had RHO not implicitly revealed his heart holding, and thus his exact shape….say he falsecarded from 3=4=1=5….I don’t think you can make it, so that’s another reason to play him for 4315.

Had LHO held long clubs and RHO long diamonds, it’s an easy double squeeze, so long as one pays attention.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#10 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2023-January-31, 18:25

I was sloppy (in my head - i didn't actually play this hand).

But I played a diamond to the queen, did NOT cash any clubs, and went back to hand with the K of spades to start on the diamonds.

I think I still have some squeeze chances after cashing all my high diamonds, but not on this layout. If only I had come back to hand with the A of hearts instead.

@thepossum: interthreaduality - it's not surprising you find more bridge hands boring if you don't take this hand as interesting and try to figure it out.
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#11 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2023-January-31, 21:53

It is a great 'bridge movie' type of hand. Thanks for posting, mike.

I cannot remember what bridge player said something like this: "If a hand looks easy, think about the worse that can happen, the worse breaks, etc." It certainly comes into that category, and then it is matter of deduction and counting accurately.

I particularly like the line "...and I was regretting not bidding grand" Yes, a immediate distraction from playing the hand correctly.
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#12 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2023-February-01, 01:34

View Postthepossum, on 2023-February-01, 01:23, said:

But now the world knows what an obnoxious and ignorant rude little **** you are mate

Be careful who you insult. It could come back and bite you

You have showed both your ignorance of so many things and your obnoxious attitude

Instead of just addressing a point you have to be that obnoxious - I believe you have offended in this way before

Where do you come from. People as obnoxious as you to write something like that. What goes through your little brain, if you have one. Where di you learn that obnoxiousness. Bringing in irrelevances from other discussions that are probably outside your understanding anyway. That's how it appears

Lol

Obnoxious attitude? Check

Insulting? Check

You have previously posted that you think hand generators for tournaments are or may be tweaked to reject boring hands. You seem to find many hands boring.

Your initial post on this thread suggested that you lack either the ability or the desire to analyze hands in the manner that most of us here do…and that every good player does. Which is no doubt why the hands seem boring to you.

I don’t know why you’re on this forum. You’ve never, to my knowledge, posted anything suggesting that you have any insight into the game…which, I suppose, is why you play mostly against robots and think that’s bridge, lol.

It’s not that I want you gone…if you enjoy reading and posting here, that’s great. But I do find your posts, other than ones like this, to be banal and uninteresting.

You appear to lack that essential element of a bridge player…curiosity. Yet you are very quick to,insult anyone who points out your flaws.

Now I’ll sit back and wait for you to insult me, lol. Do your best…I won’t laugh because you’re not that funny, but I expect to chuckle.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#13 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2023-February-01, 01:42

View Postmikeh, on 2023-February-01, 01:34, said:

Lol

Obnoxious attitude? Check

Insulting? Check

You have previously posted that you think hand generators for tournaments are or may be tweaked to reject boring hands. You seem to find many hands boring.

Your initial post on this thread suggested that you lack either the ability or the desire to analyze hands in the manner that most of us here do…and that every good player does. Which is no doubt why the hands seem boring to you.

I don’t know why you’re on this forum. You’ve never, to my knowledge, posted anything suggesting that you have any insight into the game…which, I suppose, is why you play mostly against robots and think that’s bridge, lol.

It’s not that I want you gone…if you enjoy reading and posting here, that’s great. But I do find your posts, other than ones like this, to be banal and uninteresting.

You appear to lack that essential element of a bridge player…curiosity. Yet you are very quick to,insult anyone who points out your flaws.

Now I’ll sit back and wait for you to insult me, lol. Do your best…I won’t laugh because you’re not that funny, but I expect to chuckle.



Hiw did I know you would show up. Sitting there waiting and watching. The bully pounces. I will report you too

I actually deleted my posts because I don't like being wound up by trolls. But you were quick eh. Maybe one of the mods I asked to delete

Always there to pounce. Waiting. Are you the ring-leader of the trolls and bullies on this site

And stupid too. The whole world has seen your obnoxiousness against me and others over many years

Care to retract. You know what trolling and gaslighting mean I presume

I was viciously personally attacked and you sided with the attacked. Tag team. Yes

It had been nice for a while. You andsome of the other bullies had not attacked for quite some time. Just waiting for someone else to set up a situation yes
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#14 User is online   sfi 

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Posted 2023-February-01, 01:42

View Postthepossum, on 2023-February-01, 01:35, said:

I don't know who you are matey but you are used to insulting people better than you are you. Go back to your swamp
I am sick of any of you who haven't learned to show some respect on these forums
I have reported your post to the mods for vicious ad hom.
What culture do you all reside

Never insult me again. Maybe I know more about Bridge and how to play than you. You just attack and undermine. As a team it used to be

Fortunately many of the offenders of the last 5-6 years have backed off and learned to be more respectful - or at least haven't behaved disrespectfully. I suggest you do the same. I am waiting for the tag team to join in. Waiting their chance perhaps

What are you trying to do. Impress your simpering students. The Possum has commented. Let's keep attacking him and make out he doesn't know anything

I am sorry that I let an obnoxious troll get to me. Some attacks are totally vicious, pathetic and uncalled for. Who are you to be that patthetic

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#15 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2023-February-01, 01:53

Oh one of the others showed up too after al this time

Wouldn't let my upset die

I don't resile from a word I said but I at least tried to cool the situation until you and mikeh showed

Don't think I haven't forgotten

I just was embarrassed letting a bunch of obnoxious trolls and gaslighters get to me

You are one of the names from years back. I never forget

Who are you all. Where did you learn your obnoxious ***

Sit around waiting and o. Remarkably quickly the two ((at current count) of you

Stop it again. All of you. Whoever you are

Akwoo, sfi, mikeh. Who next

Tag team

It is disgusting to constantly personally attack, troll and gaslight someone for you own pathetic agrandisement in front of an even more ignorant audience perhaps

I am not currently certified to offer professional advice but I suggest you all have serious problems to talk to a professional about

Stop beating up an issue where I tried to back off from being provoked by an obnoxious troll/s

You all had to keep the trolling ( and my response) alive. That shows how low you all are

You will all be reported to the mods for obnoxious and unprovoked personal attack (and trolling as a team) and maybe even gaslighting as a team

Its been years since the gang of you viciously attacked me. You need an in do you. One of you gets a response then you all pounce. Its clear MO

And it is clear repeated behaviour. And you have all given more evidence. You think I forget the ids of the offenders

And I will never resile from a word I have said on this forum, including those intemperate words I tried to delete from sensitive eyes

Before anyone punces on this let me finish what I am saying. All sitting their in mod-land are we

Maybe its time to ask where you think you can all act so obnoxiously against me. Check out all my posts. Who went personal

You all show up your ignorance by not knowing who I am and what I know and what I have dealt. You have ruined a thread again and made out I was the problem too. That's how you operate to ignorant newbie. Ridiculous. I have dealt with much harder nuts and harder issues than most of you could even imagine. So don't push it

But I have witnessed similar MO in other forums so I am used to it and know how to show you all up and call it out

Let's suggest you all possibly stalk my messages specifically and find any little thing to pounce on and troll with

I may not be obsessive enough to keep a list of offenders and copy and paste history of their posts but I have a very good memory for offensive people and the handles they hide behind, and their MOs

And I appreciate my stuff has been cced and there will be a big trollstorm going on. If you want to know who I am I think I am the world are entitled to know why you are picking on me all these years

Are you all that inadequte that you need this kind of bullying, trolling and putdowns of someone who may is a threat. Why me. Because I am smart, use my brain and know stuff. Really that inadequate

In case anyone wonders feel free to post anything I have ever said anywhere in my whole life. On the internet or face to face. That is how confident I am. Can you all be that confident

You could dredge my whole history. Can you say the same

Many of us cannot deal easily with vicious personal attacks in any context. Sometimes we try to back off. But as I said if people don't let me back off I do not resile

While I do not like to reply with ad hom most of you would not even understand the other thread and my points that someone felt the need to drag up

You really would not be at that level

So why we are trying to dig in to who you are. You do understand the concept of ad hom fallacy in all its forms. Inncluding misrepresentation, strawmen and everything else. If you dont understand it maybe don't insult me again until you do


Dredging around and taking something out of context is misrepresentation. Go back to school and stop insulting your superiors

So since you all started it up again I will challenge you all again. How do I not know that any of you are some of the perps who viciouusly attacked me (with similar MO) in other forums. We all intersect in many ways. Same behaviour. Same trolling. Same insults. Same tag team. You would be shocked at the lack of professionalism some of them seem to get away with. Lack of ethics. Lack of very much it has to be said. Sorry but that's the world we inhabit. Undermining ethical professional people with these kind of attacks. Also some of are dealing with serious gaslighting due to some of our personal and political campaigns too. Please don't play into their game

Dredge up all the photos. The phone calls. The videos. You think I am scared of any of you. Grow up please all of you
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#16 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2023-February-01, 02:02

I’m guessing you’re really angry. Ok, that’s not an enormous insight. I’m sorry. Feeling that outraged can’t be a pleasant feeling and I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. So, to the extent that I am a cause of your feeling that way, I apologize.

I do not retract anything, however. You brought my post upon yourself. In hindsight I shouldn’t have responded, not because my response was unfair but because you always react angrily to even well-intentioned constructive criticism, a description I won’t attach to my post. Hence I ought to have thought about the way you’d feel…although obviously you were already mostly there, given the post to which I responded. Sorry.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#17 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2023-February-01, 02:41

Seriously after akwoo (and the rest of you who pounced) have possibly ruined the thread where are we going to sort this out seriously

Jackets off in the street. Where. Its beyond a joke. I do not appreciate being trolled, attacked, misrepresented or gaslighted, or defamed. Whatever context

Where are we all going to deal with it

And however newbies or ignorant onlooker may think I am entitled to have been insulted and upset by akwoo's comment and those who followed

I was entitled to be terribly hurt. To get upset. To "fight" back

Especially after a history of such attacks

And I was entitled to do the same in every other forum or context in which it occurred

And I am entitled to have suspicion that there may be some overlaps

Fortunately the only person who had the thread ruined was one of the perps. Not a disaster


Where can we openly sort this out in a fair way. All of us with our names and our cases and arguments and facts. From this forum and all those others

Any have the guts to accept my challenge. I fear not

We do all potentially/probably intersect here. It would be nice to find a place where we can all sort it out and all of those open/hidden attackers can give me the respect of listening to what I have to say. What I know. And dare I say be answerable

And what is the endgame. Cancellation. Silencing. Banning. Blocking. Provoke a victim to get them cancelled

Get me cancelled from all forums. No chance to talk about injustice and evil anywhere

And you want a lesson on gaslighting and how such attacks work. They play into the hands of the gaslighter sitting next to you. That is how those attacks work
Almost like a conspiracy even if no genuine consipracy. The emotionless cold people gaslight the rest of us. So those used to the personal attack keep it amongst yourselves and leave people like me alone. I don't care what your obnoxious little word is like. But keep it to yourselves. Don't play into the hands of the gaslighters all around us. Online or various forms of digital forums and communications are our only escape (some of us anyway) from the evil we deal with every day. Try not to make it hard, risk us losing that too, or making us behave in an upset way infront of people in our "real" life. Public. Private. Whatever. Think before you attack and hurt

Sitting having a quiet meal in private or public. Read something obnoxious on an internet forum. Some people don't get it

Especially for the older more experienced people with extremely wide networks. Think about how many possible interesctions there could be through a forum like this before you obnoxiously troll someone ever again. Some of us cross more netowrks than most of you could dream of. Hopefully that is my protection even though its scary and embarassing to be hurt in front of them all. That's Bridge for you. It used to be

Without wanting to get too heavy. Some of us risk losing everything due to mass ignorance and gaslighting and defamation over years of our lives. Every tim you attack and get a response from someone like me it risks me literally losing my whole life. If you can somehow attempt to comprehend and dare I say empathise with that I would be grateful. mAybe one day you will learn what that situtaion is like. I would not wish it on my worst enemy. But its the situation some of us are in. The biggest enemy is the ignorance surrounding us

I would appreciate all these connected interests and gaslighters giving me the decency and respect of talking about it all, answering the issues I raise without perpetuating the rubbish

Believe me some of those who get away with what they do, behind all manner of screens is a disgrace. I have enough hard evidence to back me up. Much has been deleted or is hearsay but I have enough hard evidence for enough of them to make a case. Maybe they are all running scared

Finishing comment. Something mike said which I skimmed across. You need to learn about emotion mate. I am not angry. I am viciously hurt deep inside. Learn about emotions and feelings and why some of us act or react the way we do. It isn't anger against anything other than some abstract. And despite what some may try to tell you there is no such thing as becoming desensitised to it. The sensitivity increases after so many years or decades of it. Some of those who may tell you otherwise may be some of the people trying to gaslight me. Who would know. Some of us have professional experience counselling people so hurt so don't try counselling me. I don't know what letters you (and others have) but with all due respect most of you would not have a clue which is why I never get a chance to challenge any of you isn't it

While here (after all I have let rather a lot go haven't I) many of these trolls, bullies, gaslighters and socalled authorities who would attack me on this forum and that forum could well be the abusers. Not just of me. We are talking maybe millions, tens, hundreds of millions of victims through history. That is why some of them need to try to undermine me
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#18 User is online   pilowsky 

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Posted 2023-February-01, 03:12

If your partner had bid 1, how would that affect the bidding and final contract?
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#19 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2023-February-01, 04:11

Getting back to topic
I would still just try to make my 12 tricks and hopefully 13
Hope that doesn't make me a bad Bridge player. Seemingly those others who followed my line were not attacked. Explain. Clearly personal and maybe even stalking or harassment

If I haven't made it clear that behaviour is unwelcome. Any repeat is harassment. Maybe in your circles you even get briefings and training in such matter. Some of you weren't listening to the instructor
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#20 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2023-February-01, 07:55

View Postpilowsky, on 2023-February-01, 03:12, said:

If your partner had bid 1, how would that affect the bidding and final contract?

In standard bidding, responding 1S would be a very bad idea. It is normal to respond 2C. When one is able to force to game, bid the longer suit first.

I didn’t ask my partner why he rebid 3C…he could plausibly have bid 3S over my 2N but I think 3C was better….I expect he thought that my 2N denied a 4 card major. That depends on style, but personally I would indeed not bid 2N if I had a major.

But if he had responded 1S, I would have a problem. My hand is too strong for 3D. I can’t bid notrump with a stiff small club. I can’t make a strong raise of spades with only Axx.

Fortunately there is a time-honoured solution, imperfect though it is. I’d reverse into 2H. That gets the strength of my hand across, at the cost of distorting my shape

It’s reasonably safe…partner won’t raise hearts without 4 of them and,if he does that, I know he has five or more spades…with 4=4 majors, he bids 1H rather than 1S.

As it is, over my reverse he is a little stuck himself. He bids, I assume, 3C, natural and strong enough to force to game….unfortunately not showing anything remotely like what he holds. A decent 8 count is enough to force to game opposite a reverse

Now opener is a bit stuck again….this is a consequence of the 1S response rather than describing his hand by responding 2C. Look at the difference.

2C then 3C shows 13+ hcp (he shouldn’t game force with much less unless he has a diamond fit which bidding 3C over 2N denies) and six or more clubs.

2C made this hand easy to bid….I’m not sure how, in an unpracticed partnership with no discussion, grand could be reached with confidence but small was never going to be missed.

After 1D 1S 2H 3C opener has to fess up to the spades, in case responder has 5 (personally, if I bid 3C, I’d be denying 5+ spades unless I had a very unusual hand but I’d not assume partner knew that).

I think the auction should go something like 1D 1S 2H 3C 3S and now responder is stuck. 4N might sound like and maybe should be keycard for spades so he can’t do that. So what else can he do?

I’m not going to speculate further. I hope that you can see how tortuous the auction has become: all because of a very bad choice of 1S. Seriously, it’s extremely important to learn that with game force values, bid your suits, when they are of unequal length, in the order of the longer first

This is truly a fundamental part of learning to bid cooperatively.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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