[michel444]

I am doing research on defence to fert opening
Forcing Pass system are banned by ACBL not because of the forcing pass opening but because of the fert opening and the artificial limited opening

a Fert opening is a bid that show 0-7 or 0-8 point and is very disturbing for the other side

---

SOUTH OPEN 1♥ promising 13 cards and 0-8 HCP
WEST PASS
NORTH bid 2♣ showing 4+♥ and another suit 11-17 HCP
EAST PASS
SOUTH BID 2♥ giving his partner "support" 3+♥
all PASS
THIS IS A VERY BAD EXAMPLE
but if you look at the diagram you see a good fit in ♠ of East-West that they can not bid
Michel

[foobar]

 michel444, on 2022-September-26, 11:30, said:

but if you look at the diagram you see a good fit in ♠ of East-West that they can not bid
Michel

Seems like West can easily pre-balance with 2♠ with the void, having passed earlier. N/S will probably compete to 3♥.

[michel444]

ANOTHER EXAMPLE

---

THIS IS MORE INTERSTING
North open 1♥ 0-8 HCP AND 13 CARDS
East double 4+♥ 14+ HPC
SOUTH PASS 3+♥
WEST PASS 3+♥ FOR PENALITIE
NORTH bid 2♦
can not remember how East is suposed to show 4 cards ♠
have to find my note about it
west bid 4♥

[michel444]

 foobar, on 2022-September-26, 14:24, said:

Seems like West can easily pre-balance with 2♠ with the void, having passed earlier. N/S will probably compete to 3♥.

I had never see someone balancing 2♠ with a 4 cards suit
I am not teling if its right or wrong ...

[foobar]

 michel444, on 2022-September-26, 15:04, said:

I had never see someone balancing 2♠ with a 4 cards suit
I am not teling if its right or wrong ...

Wasn't West 5=0=4=4 in the original problem?

---

[foobar]

 michel444, on 2022-September-26, 14:59, said:

ANOTHER EXAMPLE

---

THIS IS MORE INTERSTING
North open 1♥ 0-8 HCP AND 13 CARDS
East double 4+♥ 14+ HPC
SOUTH PASS 3+♥
WEST PASS 3+♥ FOR PENALITIE
NORTH bid 2♦
can not remember how East is suposed to show 4 cards ♠
have to find my note about it
west bid 4♥

What's the problem here? Seems like E/W reached the right game. East can pass over 2♦, and it should be forcing. Over the reopening X, East can bid 3♦ to show a flexible hand, and then raise 3♥ to 4.

[Douglas43]

As somebody with no intention of playing forcing pass, I am beginning to think that it should be legalised. Mind you, I still think opponents should be allowed to double "pass".

[michel444]

another Example

---

made a mistake tryibg to put bid in diagram exchanging West and East
East deal and pass
south open a fert 1♥ promising 13 cards and 0-8 HCP
West PASS
North make a forcing relay with 1 ♠ / 18+ HCP ANY SHAPE
East PASS
SOUTH BID 2♥ / PROMISING 5 + ♥ 5-7 (8) HCP
WEST PASS
NORTH bid 4♥
all PASS

[michel444]

 Douglas43, on 2022-September-27, 00:07, said:

As somebody with no intention of playing forcing pass, I am beginning to think that it should be legalised. Mind you, I still think opponents should be allowed to double "pass".

l LOL
I LOOKED a few hour ago on the ACBL regulation
not only FORCINH PASS IS ILEGAL
BUT MOSCITO is not legal too; because it use Transfer opening
MOSCITO opening
1♣ 15+ HCP any shape / 17+ HCP IN chair 3 or 4
1♦ 4+♥ 9-14 HCP / only in first or second chair
1♥ 4+♠ 9-14 HCP / only in first or second chair
1♠ 4+♦9-14 HCP / only in first or second chair
1NT balanced no 5 cards major 11-14 HCP
2♣ 6+♣ 0-3♦ / SOME VERSION MAY HAVE A 4 CARDS MAJOR
2♦ AND ABOVE ARE PRE
4 YEAR AGO WAS A THREAD IN BRIDGE WINNER ABOUT PROPOPSING DEFENSE TO transfer opening



mICHEL

[michel444]

link
https://bridgewinner...-or-1h-opening/

the Defense comite in ACBL
REJECTED alll proposition of defesibe biding to transfer opening .

[dokoko]

In your original hand NS missed a 50% game. If ♠A is under the king, 10 tricks are easy. So it's not clear who was preempted.

[michel444]

 michel444, on 2022-September-26, 11:30, said:

I am doing research on defence to fert opening
Forcing Pass system are banned by ACBL not because of the forcing pass opening but because of the fert opening and the artificial limited opening

a Fert opening is a bid that show 0-7 or 0-8 point and is very disturbing for the other side

---

SOUTH OPEN 1♥ promising 13 cards and 0-8 HCP
WEST PASS
NORTH bid 2♣ showing 4+♥ and another suit 11-17 HCP
EAST PASS
SOUTH BID 2♥ giving his partner "support" 3+♥
all PASS
THIS IS A VERY BAD EXAMPLE
but if you look at the diagram you see a good fit in ♠ of East-West that they can not bid
Michel

I think somebody is trying to say this hand have 50% to make game
if south Dont open 1H (fwertil..) and pass west pass and ?

[pescetom]

 michel444, on 2022-October-02, 04:51, said:

I think somebody is trying to say this hand have 50% to make game
if south Dont open 1H (fwertil..) and pass west pass and ?

And NS will bid to some number of H, making 9 tricks. But there would be ten if SA was in West.

[michel444]

 pescetom, on 2022-October-02, 08:26, said:

And NS will bid to some number of H, making 9 tricks. But there would be ten if SA was in West.

ok
and you are going to look for game with 13 HCP oposit opening pass with 7 HPC ?
BTW if you put the Ace of ♠ to West hand he will open 1 or 2 ♠

[nullve]

 michel444, on 2022-October-02, 09:10, said:

i just downloaded today Robson Segal book from here http://bridge.mgoetz...obson-segal.pdf

 michel444, on 2022-October-02, 09:02, said:

and you are going to look for game with 13 HCP oposit opening pass with 7 HPC ?

The book explains why. (It has something to do with having 5+5 trumps rather than 13+7 points.)

[mikeh]

Ferts are not banned solely by the ACBL

The WBF doesn’t allow it in world championship events, at least not in the round robin stages

If you can’t play it even then, frankly I don’t see why anyone would want to play it

There aren’t many players with a realistic hope of playing in any real event where it’s permitted, and I’m not saying it’s allowed even in the ko phase of world championships… the few times I’ve reached that stage, none of our opps played ferts so I didn’t have to worry about it

[DinDIP]

 mikeh, on 2022-October-02, 16:41, said:

Ferts are not banned solely by the ACBL

The WBF doesn’t allow it in world championship events, at least not in the round robin stages

If you can’t play it even then, frankly I don’t see why anyone would want to play it

There aren’t many players with a realistic hope of playing in any real event where it’s permitted, and I’m not saying it’s allowed even in the ko phase of world championships… the few times I’ve reached that stage, none of our opps played ferts so I didn’t have to worry about it

Well, one New Zealand pair that proposed playing a forcing pass variant of their system was "encouraged" by John Wignall, the then South Pacific zonal WBF rep (from NZ), not to play such a system in the KO stages. The pair was advised that their submissions to the systems committee (?) would be rejected as incomplete because they did not provide sufficient detail about how they would handle actions by the opponents. The pair offered to remedy any specific deficiencies but was given to understand that there would be nothing they could do in time that would be sufficient. I understand that under the new regime at the WBF things would be handled differently if a pair expressed an intention to play a HUM system in the KO stages.

[hrothgar]

 DinDIP, on 2022-November-05, 01:26, said:

Well, one New Zealand pair that proposed playing a forcing pass variant of their system was "encouraged" by John Wignall, the then South Pacific zonal WBF rep (from NZ), not to play such a system in the KO stages. The pair was advised that their submissions to the systems committee (?) would be rejected as incomplete because they did not provide sufficient detail about how they would handle actions by the opponents. The pair offered to remedy any specific deficiencies but was given to understand that there would be nothing they could do in time that would be sufficient. I understand that under the new regime at the WBF things would be handled differently if a pair expressed an intention to play a HUM system in the KO stages.

John Wignall has been responsible for a bunch of shady stuff over the years.

I'm surprised he hasn't moved to the US.