[AL78]

This was a hand held by one of my regular partners who was playing with someone else at the time, and she asked me about it:

Matchpoints. They were playing 5CM, strong NT, 1♣ could be short.

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2♣ is natural. Your call?

[P_Marlowe]

AL78, on 2022-July-13, 11:10, said:

This was a hand held by one of my regular partners who was playing with someone else at the time, and she asked me about it:

Matchpoints. They were playing 5CM, strong NT, 1♣ could be short.

---

2♣ is natural. Your call?

3NT?

[Cyberyeti]

P_Marlowe, on 2022-July-13, 11:23, said:

3NT?

Is what I'd do, partner probably has AQxx, Q10xx, xx, Axx and they cash 4-5 diamonds and a heart when 4♠ is cold

[pescetom]

3NT looks reasonable to me.

As an aside, I dislike 2♣ showing clubs over a possibly short (2344) 1♣, although I'm forced to play it with most partners.

[mikeh]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-July-13, 11:35, said:

Is what I'd do, partner probably has AQxx, Q10xx, xx, Axx and they cash 4-5 diamonds and a heart when 4♠ is cold

Let me know where you find opponents who, red v white, overcall 2C on a suit headed by the 10.

As for what I’d do, at mps I think I pass.

If partner has a 4=4=3=2 hand, she should usually reopen with a double, and I’ll sit for it. We ought to have a shot at 500. Dummy is likely dead. I’m leading trump so as to not blow a trick on opening lead and to allow me to know better how to defend later…I don’t want to finesse partner and let declarer escape with say 4 trumps and three side winners.

If partner can’t reopen, we may well have no game. Imagine partner with say 4=4=2=3. If we find spades, ace and a club almost surely leads to a minus our way. If we play 3N, we need to score 7 tricks outside of clubs after a club to the ace and a second club.

Even +100 rates to be ok if we have no game, and I can’t easily construct hands where we don’t get at least 200.

I think I’d do the same at imps, although the arithmetic isn’t quite as attractive (getting 500 v 400 doesn’t win much, and getting 200 v 400 is relatively expensive…but I still think pass is best)

Btw, I play 2C (and 3C) as natural after a 2+ club and think it’s a very good treatment. It’s surprisingly difficult to play against and takes away the one level. We use 2H as ‘limited Michael’s’ and either bid 1S or double with better hands and both majors. We’ve yet to be stuck in 1S when cold for 4H😀

[AL78]

Thanks for the responses so far. My partner chose to double instead of passing or bidding 3NT, she wanted to find a spade fit if it existed.

The next round of the auction was:

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Assume East could possibly have four spades as well here. I appreciate you wouldn't be in this position but what do you think West should do now?

[P_Marlowe]

AL78, on 2022-July-13, 12:46, said:

Thanks for the responses so far. My partner chose to double instead of passing or bidding 3NT, she wanted to find a spade fit if it existed.

The next round of the auction was:

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Assume East could possibly have four spades as well here. I appreciate you wouldn't be in this position but what do you think West should do now?

3NT

You tried finding a 4-4, reasonable (*), but partner did not cooperate,
bidding spades now showes 5+, i.e. you cant bid spades,
you have the club stopper, you show it, you have the strength for game,
you show it by bidding it.

But I agree, that pass a round before is pretty attractive, ..., I did not look to
closely at the vul. ( we talked in another thread about errors playing MP, that may go unnoticed), ... ,
if it gets all pass I wont be too happy, if overcaller has a 7 carder, we may not get 400,
and is A10xxxx enough with regards to suit quality?

The advantage of 3NT, this should be the field contract, but pass is certainly a valid
option.

(*) The problem with a suit contract is, that you may get a ruff pretty quickly.

[mikeh]

AL78, on 2022-July-13, 12:46, said:

Thanks for the responses so far. My partner chose to double instead of passing or bidding 3NT, she wanted to find a spade fit if it existed.

The next round of the auction was:

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Assume East could possibly have four spades as well here. I appreciate you wouldn't be in this position but what do you think West should do now?

Any notrump bid here should deliver 4 spades, else why double? The issue is whether it denies 4 hearts…I’m not sure that it does….and even less sure that it should

I am not that optimistic about this hand. We may have lots of hcp but insufficient winners. At imps one has to bid game, even nv, and I suspect that staying out of game would be a minority position at mps. While Im happy to back my judgment in most cases…I’ve looked silly before and will again…in this case it’s not clear game fails and since some people won’t be facing the overcall (which will sometimes help me or partner in the play) I think we need to bid game rather than, say, 2N.

I’d choose 3N but, as noted, I wouldn’t be in this quite foreseeable position. Which brings into focus that one ought, on the previous round, have already decided what to do over a heart bid by opener.

I think this 3N should be seen as analogous to 1N 2C 2H 3N (assuming opener bids 2H with 4=4 majors, as is normal)

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2022-July-13, 12:08, said:

Let me know where you find opponents who, red v white, overcall 2C on a suit headed by the 10.

They very likely have the other 7, but the 4432 version is probably more likely

[AL78]

Thanks for the further replies. Quality analysis and clear logical reasoning by mikeh as always.

The original question she put to me was whether this bid in the auction below is forcing:

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I could not think of any good reason why it wouldn't be forcing, but at the same time I couldn't think of a good hand that would be bid like this holding a long spade suit instead of directly bidding spades the first time around.

She believed her 2♠ bid should have obtained another bid from partner, unfortunately her partner, being inexperienced, passed, and they got 4/26 MPs for being the only pair to miss a cold game.

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Before you ask I have no idea where this 2♣ overcall came from, but it threw a big enough spanner in the EW works. There are a handful of people at the club who bid wildly like this, and it can be difficult to play against them because it can be almost impossible to know whether or not they really have their bid.

[mikeh]

AL78, on 2022-July-13, 13:36, said:

Thanks for the further replies. Quality analysis and clear logical reasoning by mikeh as always.

The original question she put to me was whether this bid in the auction below is forcing:

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I could not think of any good reason why it wouldn't be forcing, but at the same time I couldn't think of a good hand that would be bid like this holding a long spade suit instead of directly bidding spades the first time around.

She believed her 2♠ bid should have obtained another bid from partner, unfortunately her partner, being inexperienced, passed, and they got 4/26 MPs for being the only pair to miss a cold game.

---

Before you ask I have no idea where this 2♣ overcall came from, but it threw a big enough spanner in the EW works. There are a handful of people at the club who bid wildly like this, and it can be difficult to play against them because it can be almost impossible to know whether or not they really have their bid.

I believe that is is ‘standard’ that this 2S is non forcing. How would you bid KJ109xx xx Axx xx? If that’s 2S for you, make it KJ10xxx xx Kxx xx?

The point is that if you have a good hand with 5+ spades, you bid 2S over 2C. If you have a good hand with 4 spades, you must be prepared for partner’s possibly inconvenient response to a negative double or else you pass, hoping for a reopening double.

Having doubled (note that I’d be collecting 1100 v 2C given that partner has a clear reopening double and my club lead gives us 9 tricks), responder cannot now make a call that can be passed, unless swinging very low.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

the forcing nature of 2S in the given auction is a matter of partnership agreement,
if a direct 2S is forcing, a delayed 2S is non forcing, given the vul. not
complete garbage, but non forcing nevertheless.
If a direct 2S is non forcing, a delayed 2S is forcing.

Anyway, in both cases a 2S bid showes 5+.

The take away from this seq. is, to discuss how to show a single suited hand
with non forcing / forcing strength after a overcall.
And while you are at it, what does a non frocing single suited hand look like,
that bids in the given auction.

Just assume, partner opened 1D, instead of 1C.

This is something, that comes up quite frequently.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: The 2C call most likely will also be punished, when we end up in 3NT, we are
quite likely making +2, beating all the 4S contracts, we will find the Queen of Hearts.
It is not a spectacular punishment, but a near top is nearly, due to +10,
is nearly as good as a top due to getting 1100.
The advantage: They will do it again, the 1100 may teach them to stop it (unlikely).

[AL78]

mikeh, on 2022-July-13, 14:08, said:

I believe that is is ‘standard’ that this 2S is non forcing. How would you bid KJ109xx xx Axx xx? If that’s 2S for you, make it KJ10xxx xx Kxx xx?

The point is that if you have a good hand with 5+ spades, you bid 2S over 2C. If you have a good hand with 4 spades, you must be prepared for partner’s possibly inconvenient response to a negative double or else you pass, hoping for a reopening double.

Having doubled (note that I’d be collecting 1100 v 2C given that partner has a clear reopening double and my club lead gives us 9 tricks), responder cannot now make a call that can be passed, unless swinging very low.

I couldn't think of a good reason, but thanks for providing me with a good reason. I can see that is a reasonable agreement to have. I played disturbed bids as weak with a former partner many years ago.

[DavidKok]

The auction is sufficiently analogous to 1♦-(2♣)-?, where I play artificial followups, that I would recommend playing the same here. Even if you do not play anything fancy, play the same here (you can make the 2♦ bid forcing but keep the rest identical).

The hand itself is a pile of red flags. Pass and sit a takeout double. I don't like our game chances.

Edit: I've just scrolled down and seen mikeh's example hands that would double then bid 2♠, I'd be OK bidding a 2♠ (forcing) with both of those. The chance that partner has got real clubs is reduced by the doubleton in that suit, so partner is likely balanced. That not only guarantees a spade fit, but opposite 12-14 I don't mind getting to 3♠ with such a high ODR. But double then pull also works, and if the hand is even slightly weaker that is clearly indicated.

[apollo1201]

mikeh, on 2022-July-13, 14:08, said:

I believe that is is ‘standard’ that this 2S is non forcing. How would you bid KJ109xx xx Axx xx? If that’s 2S for you, make it KJ10xxx xx Kxx xx?

The point is that if you have a good hand with 5+ spades, you bid 2S over 2C. If you have a good hand with 4 spades, you must be prepared for partner’s possibly inconvenient response to a negative double or else you pass, hoping for a reopening double.

That is exactly the way to distinguish « non garbage but less than limit » hands vs the ones who can bid a direct forcing 2S bid, as most players who play standard-ish methods. Of course the negative free bids will swap, but I am less knowledgeable about this.

In all cases, X then 2S and direct 2S can’t be both forcing.

This also stresses out the fact that with H, you must be cautious and have a fall back position in case partner bids S:
- a 3-cd fit for S to let partner in a « playable » 4-3
- a stopper and 10 HCP to try 2NT
- a 6th H to bid a nf 3H over 2S
- a fit for opener’s suit (in case of the 1D-2C sequence, here obviously it is different…still wondering btw where S found a 2C vulnerable overcall!) to get back to a playable spot at 3m

[LBengtsson]

AL78, on 2022-July-13, 13:36, said:

Before you ask I have no idea where this 2♣ overcall came from, but it threw a big enough spanner in the EW works. There are a handful of people at the club who bid wildly like this, and it can be difficult to play against them because it can be almost impossible to know whether or not they really have their bid.

It came at Matchpoints - just one board. It really does not matter if the opps. go for -500/-800/-1100 as the hand will be at the bottom. It did throw a "spanner in the bidding machinery' South knows that 95% you have game as partner has passed. Given that 1♣ opening can show short ♣s, what suit would South like led against a 3NT contract? The only problem is that North thinks it is a genuine call and doubles 3NT maybe?

If East has a genuine ♣ suit then if partner passes - unlikely as they will have cards in the other three suits - then East will find it difficult to reopen with an X. 2♣ is a psychology bid in my opinion. If teammates did this at IMPs I would not play with them again. At MPs with a good partner, I would try to see understand why he did it.

[Cyberyeti]

If you assume south is not a maniac, I'm not sure how good game is on the auction you had (and N clearly knew about S because I'd be raising to 3♣ opposite one of our overcalls). I can easily see a second round club ruff and a diamond through and you have to find ♥Q to make 3 on a more likely layout than the one actually present.