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Do you think there is merit in this? specifically for learning relay systems

#1 User is offline   pilun 

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Posted 2022-January-08, 21:01

https://www.youtube....nnel=NickHughes

I have the system in BBOAlert via Full Disclosure, so didn't have to type much.
A bit slow at 2 minutes per board but that's a youtube issue. I was twice as fast bidding.
I did this simply with [Windows][G] in Windows 10. I bid the hands on one computer, kibitzed on another.
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#2 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2022-January-09, 02:10

This is coming from the choir, but it seems like a commendable start. A couple of areas for improvement might be adding an audio track, with possibly a video inlay. Also, an explanation of the methods might help those not so dyed in the wool in symmetric.

On the flip side, the suggestions might be not worth the time and effort, given the niche audience.
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#3 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-January-09, 03:25

View Postfoobar, on 2022-January-09, 02:10, said:

This is coming from the choir, but it seems like a commendable start. A couple of areas for improvement might be adding an audio track, with possibly a video inlay. Also, an explanation of the methods might help those not so dyed in the wool in symmetric.

On the flip side, the suggestions might be not worth the time and effort, given the niche audience.

Some of us are curious even though having no experience with relay. Still a niche, but at least grateful for explanation :)
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#4 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2022-January-09, 05:57

Back in the day, Roy Kerr created a program called Bridge2Symmetric

Would be nice to see something like this get revived once more
Alderaan delenda est
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#5 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2022-January-09, 10:29

View Postpescetom, on 2022-January-09, 03:25, said:

Some of us are curious even though having no experience with relay. Still a niche, but at least grateful for explanation :)

This is an interesting point. Symmetric relay is one of the best bidding inventions ever, and it's a pity that so few people are aware of it.

Nick,

One idea might be be create an introductory video that lays out the principles behind symmetric relay (short-legged, long-legged, reverser, QPs, DCB, etc.), then walk through how it maps to SCAMP.
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#6 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2022-January-09, 10:30

View Posthrothgar, on 2022-January-09, 05:57, said:

Back in the day, Roy Kerr created a program called Bridge2Symmetric

Would be nice to see something like this get revived once more

I still have my copy :D.
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#7 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2022-January-09, 12:00

6N better and safer.
6 could fail if hearts 4-1 and there is a ruff
Sarcasm is a state of mind
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#8 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-January-09, 12:17

View Postfoobar, on 2022-January-09, 10:29, said:

This is an interesting point. Symmetric relay is one of the best bidding inventions ever, and it's a pity that so few people are aware of it.

Nick,

One idea might be be create an introductory video that lays out the principles behind symmetric relay (short-legged, long-legged, reverser, QPs, DCB, etc.), then walk through how it maps to SCAMP.


I read the original description of Symmetric relay years ago and was impressed, but unfortunately that was it. A video laying out the principles of the original system and then SCAMP would be great, both for understanding and as bait to entice a partner to take the plunge.
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#9 User is offline   pilun 

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Posted 2022-January-09, 16:36

View Poststeve2005, on 2022-January-09, 12:00, said:

6N better and safer.
6 could fail if hearts 4-1 and there is a ruff


Unfortunately - through the vagaries of relay - South got the notrumps in first.
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#10 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2022-January-10, 08:30

For anyone who cares, here are some written notes on learning Symmetric Relay


https://www.dropbox....0Relay.pdf?dl=0
https://www.dropbox....0Shape.pdf?dl=0
https://www.dropbox....Topics.pdf?dl=0
Alderaan delenda est
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#11 User is offline   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2022-January-10, 10:15

View Posthrothgar, on 2022-January-09, 05:57, said:

Back in the day, Roy Kerr created a program called Bridge2Symmetric

Would be nice to see something like this get revived once more


I have that program on my old laptop. :)
Ultra Relay: see Daniel's web page: https://bridgewithda...19/07/Ultra.pdf
C3: Copious Canapé is still my favorite system. (Ultra upgraded, PM for notes)

Played Mosca (Nightmare-Fantunes-Millennium like) system with Canapé, 11-14 NT.

Santa Fe Precision published 8/19. TOP3 published 11/20. Magic experiment (Science Modernized) with Lenzo. 2020: Jan Eric Larsson's Cottontail Club. 2020: C3 Reborn - T-Precision with Relays & 4cd M. BFUN (Bridge For the UNbalanced) 2021: Weiss Simplified (Canapé & Relay). 2022: Canary Modernized.
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#12 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2022-January-10, 11:19

View Posthrothgar, on 2022-January-10, 08:30, said:

For anyone who cares, here are some written notes on learning Symmetric Relay


https://www.dropbox....0Relay.pdf?dl=0
https://www.dropbox....0Shape.pdf?dl=0
https://www.dropbox....Topics.pdf?dl=0


Also, Andrei Sharko's excellent primer on the topic: https://www.pagat.co...metricRelay.pdf
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#13 User is offline   pilun 

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Posted 2022-January-10, 18:41

View Postfoobar, on 2022-January-09, 10:29, said:

This is an interesting point. Symmetric relay is one of the best bidding inventions ever, and it's a pity that so few people are aware of it.

Nick,

One idea might be be create an introductory video that lays out the principles behind symmetric relay (short-legged, long-legged, reverser, QPs, DCB, etc.), then walk through how it maps to SCAMP.


Sounds a bit much like hard work. As you know Atul, the idea of the book is to make symmetric accessible.
Other than BBO movies, this is as far as I will go:

Most of the structures
Relaying to slam

Again the problem is compatibility. Everyone has their own tweaks.
"High or low shortage first?" "Zoom with 1-suiters, or 2-suiters with clubs, or ..?" "Is 5332 1-suited or balanced?"
By and large, the balanced hand structures are not symmetric and everyone's is different.
Then there are the GF responses to 1, a mass of good but random variations.
Not to mention those who use 1 positive, 1 DN.

This last point was crucial for me. Whether or not it is slightly better than the traditional, the added complexity is off-putting if the aim is to attract a wider audience.
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#14 User is offline   enigmisto 

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Posted 2022-January-10, 21:38

What is the best published book on symmetric relay? Is there any current software for practicing it?
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#15 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2022-January-11, 11:07

View Postenigmisto, on 2022-January-10, 21:38, said:

What is the best published book on symmetric relay? Is there any current software for practicing it?

See the resources mentioned above (Sharko, Richard). Kit Woolsey published a book called KK Relay (see the BridgeWinners shop). In the past, I would have recommended the excellent b2sym for software, but perhaps, it's best to line up a like-minded partner, and practice using a BBO teaching table (using the resources mentioned above).

This forum is an excellent resource if it clicks, and there are specific questions.
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#16 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2022-January-11, 11:17

View Postpilun, on 2022-January-10, 18:41, said:

Sounds a bit much like hard work. As you know Atul, the idea of the book is to make symmetric accessible.
...

Again the problem is compatibility. Everyone has their own tweaks.
"High or low shortage first?" "Zoom with 1-suiters, or 2-suiters with clubs, or ..?" "Is 5332 1-suited or balanced?"
By and large, the balanced hand structures are not symmetric and everyone's is different.
Then there are the GF responses to 1, a mass of good but random variations.
Not to mention those who use 1 positive, 1 DN.


Very valid points, Nick. FWIW, the OCP (Precision variant) has a fairly large following, and part of their success is that they have a weekly teaching table with voice chat, where they look at strong club auctions. We have enough quorum here to try to setup something similar if it's worthwhile.

Regarding the 1D positive tweak etc, many if us we are guilty of trying to hyperoptimize. Symmetic relay is eons ahead of anything out there, so is that last 1% worth the effort? IMO, vanilla symmetric is fantastic, and layering on that little extra is just an exercise in diminishing returns, and may even be counterproductive.
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#17 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-January-11, 11:49

Thanks Richard and Nick for the documents.
Somebody (dropbox?) added in a couple of SalesMagnet files, which I deleted and hope were innocuous.
Sharko's primer is the document I saw years ago, but it was a bit over my head at the time.
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#18 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2022-January-11, 16:44

View Postpescetom, on 2022-January-11, 11:49, said:

Thanks Richard and Nick for the documents.
Somebody (dropbox?) added in a couple of SalesMagnet files, which I deleted and hope were innocuous.
Sharko's primer is the document I saw years ago, but it was a bit over my head at the time.

Out the curiosity, do you feel the same way about Sharko's document today? It will be interesting to know the parts that were tougher to understand.
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#19 User is offline   enigmisto 

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Posted 2022-January-12, 21:51

I just read through the two different Symmetric Relay documents posted here, to get a feel for the system, and the charts are quite different. I gather that one is transfer-oriented and one isn't. Does this mean there's no standard meaning of the term "Symmetric Relay"?
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#20 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2022-January-13, 05:16

View Postenigmisto, on 2022-January-12, 21:51, said:

I just read through the two different Symmetric Relay documents posted here, to get a feel for the system, and the charts are quite different. I gather that one is transfer-oriented and one isn't. Does this mean there's no standard meaning of the term "Symmetric Relay"?


The defining feature of symmetric relay is that bids with the same shape are typically resolved at the same level.
So, all 5431 hands revolve shape with a 3 bid
6421 hands resolve shape with a 3 bid

Associated with this, you typically see standard modules

2!H show a two suited pattern with 4 cards in suit foo, 5+ in suit bar
2!S shows a two suited patterns with 5+ cards in suit foo and 5+ in suit bar
2N shows a two suited pattern with 4 cards in suit bar, 5+ in suit foo

Stuff like what you are talking about is more about how you initially identify what suits foo and bar happen to be.

Some folks use transfers, others don't.
This is more viewed as a detail
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