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too high or just unlucky? MP disaster

#21 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-October-09, 04:12

 johnu, on 2021-October-08, 16:33, said:

-500 is still worse than any nonvul game and only better than a 23 HCP slam the other way which is odds against being bid.


Actually not quite true, if K happens not to be a trick it beats the 510s too, I've lost out to this combination several times.
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#22 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2021-October-09, 05:28

 Cyberyeti, on 2021-October-09, 04:12, said:

Actually not quite true, if K happens not to be a trick it beats the 510s too, I've lost out to this combination several times.

And sometimes they end up in 3NT with partner on lead, and you want a diamond, with the king of
spades as likely entry.
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Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#23 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-October-09, 08:43

The basic reasons to overcall: indicate a lead, find game, or compete for the part score. None of those reasons is adequately fulfilled by this hand.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
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#24 User is offline   mikl_plkcc 

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Posted 2021-October-09, 11:42

 mikeh, on 2021-October-08, 15:39, said:

You remind me of a small number of players I encountered years ago. We had a Regional tournament and the organizers asked a few of the local experts to wear a button saying ‘Ask me’.

The idea was that we’d take questions and do our best to provide helpful answers

A few people would ask for my advice on what to do.I’d give it to them, explaining why. And they’d start arguing with me, convinced that I was wrong.

Here, you invited comments on the bidding. I think you were hoping for criticism of the 5D call or reassurance that you were unlucky.

It turns out that everyone thinks you made a bad overcall, you asked me to explain, so I did (as did others), and your response is not to try to learn but to tell us how wrong we all are.

I’ve got news for you. When players more knowledgeable and skilled at this game tell you where you went wrong….listen to them!

Or quit wasting our time. You don’t want to become a better player? Fine…I don’t care. Just please stop asking me to spend my time answering your questions…you appear to think that the only views worth listening to are yours.

Have fun with that, though I doubt I’ll see you in Salsmaggiore in March��


I really don't understand now what hand I should bid with a 2-level overcall. Should I only overcall with a 6-card suit or a solid 5-card suit?! Does that mean I should even pass 1 with xx AK AJxxx KJxx ?!
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#25 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-October-09, 12:22

Quite possibly, yes. What do you expect will happen if you bid? What do you expect will happen if you pass? What do you expect will happen if you double?

I'm the world's last Bridge Pessimist, but I don't think I'm cherry picking too much:
  • if you bid, expect partner to sacrifice in 5 diamonds like in the OP when it's either a phantom or -800 into -620 because she "knows" half your hand isn't taking tricks. Or you'll be priced into competing to 4, and go -200 into 3M= their way.
  • If partner doesn't have long diamonds, expect to be outbid in spades - or hearts! - and know how to play the hand. They might stop in 3 because of the overcall, and they pay tops for +140 just as much as +1100.
  • If you double, of course partner with Jxxx will bid that suit. Now what?
  • If you pass, it's likely that either they'll bid to game (with a surprise waiting for them. Or for you. Find out in the play), or they'll stop in 2 - maybe of a fit, maybe not - and you know you're not sitting opposite zero. Now you can decide what to do (of course, with them having the majors, they have the "last guess" still).


You're not likely to win the auction (unless it's wrong); you don't really want a diamond opening lead, unless from Qxx or Kxx - and you'd be just as happy with a club lead from Axx or Qxx; you're placing cards for the opponents;... or, as Winston said:

Quote

The basic reasons to overcall: indicate a lead, find game, or compete for the part score. None of those reasons is adequately fulfilled by this hand.


Having said that, it would be very hard for me to pass this hand. But if I bid, I'd do it knowing it's not a good 2 overcall, 16 high or no. You might even convince me to overcall 1NT with no stopper (that's also bad).

As far as "what hand you should bid 2 with":

MikeH said:

Move a small heart into your diamond suit, so you are 2=1=6=4, and I approve the bid…note that now you may well be -300 in 5D if they try to cash a second heart.

...

[M]ost good players, after 1M on their right, would want a decent 6 card suit unless they hold a ‘good’ opening hand and a chunky 5 card suit.

...

Say I hold AJ9 Kxxx Kx Jxxx [as your partner]

I’d expect to have reasonable play for 3N after my partner bid 2D over a 1S opening. I’d be expecting a good shot at 6 diamond tricks, I have (probably) two spade stoppers (without partner holding any spade honour) and would expect to score some round suit tricks as well since 2D delivers more than AQJxxx in diamonds and out.


I think it's in Simon where the quote is "you have 19 high, and you'd better pass [rather than double] with every one of them, because 3NT is cold."
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
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#26 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-October-09, 12:45

 mikl_plkcc, on 2021-October-09, 11:42, said:

I really don't understand now what hand I should bid with a 2-level overcall. Should I only overcall with a 6-card suit or a solid 5-card suit?! Does that mean I should even pass 1 with xx AK AJxxx KJxx ?!

Nothing is perfect. However, you seem to be arguing that you should overcall 2D with Kx xxx AQxxx Qxx because you’d hate to pass with xx AK AJxxx KJxx.

There’s no reason to equate those two hands, and the fact that you think, so it appears, that they are equivalent says you have a lot of work to do before you become a decent player.

Personally, if not vulnerable, I would always bid 2D over 1S with the 2=2=5=4 16 count. I wouldn’t be happy, but I think bidding is better than passing, although both could work best on any given day.

Give me xx AK Jxxxx AKJx and now I’m really hating it! Now I’d pass at any vulnerability since 2D on that suit is awful, doubling is asking to play in a 4-2 heart fit with an eight or nine card minor suit fit that we can’t reach, and 1N has an obvious flaw in the spade suit.

Fortunately, probabilities being what they are, the odds are pretty good that when one has a strong hand one will usually have values in a long suit…the more of your cards are in any one suit, the more likely it is that your honours will be there as well.

I don’t have a rigid rule. As I’ve said many times, I don’t reduce my hand evaluations to a single value, no matter how complex your scheme might be. So it’s difficult for me to give you any simple rule to follow. Indeed, if you gave me the same borderline situation a few months apart (so I don’t recognize it the second time) I might give two different answers.

However:

If overcalling a 5 card suit, I suggest you need at least a decent 12 count and good values, including good spot cards, in your suit.

If you hold xxx in opener’s suit, downgrade the hand and err on the side of caution, especially when they bid 1M. Xxx, including Jxx, is the worst holding possible.

If you hold a 6 card suit with decent internal strength, you can overcall 2/1 with a good 10 count.

Say you hold x KQ1098x AJxx xx. I’d happily bid 2H over 1S even red v white.

xx Q10xxxx KQx Kx I’d pass even white v red

Anyone who thinks that those two hands are even approximately the same needs to work on valuation.

There has been a powerful trend over the past 40 years or so to ever increasing aggression in bidding. This trend is because, in the hands of expert players, aggression tends to pay off.

Even when lesser players ramp up the aggression, they usually get away with it. They are almost always playing against players of the same general skill level, so each side makes enough mistakes that, on balance, they end up quite similarly to the experts.

But there’s a limit to hyper-aggression, and it’s found most of all in making 2/1 overcalls.

Why? I addressed some of the reasons in an earlier post so won’t repeat myself other than to say that good players routinely carve up bad overcalls.

You may get away with bad overcalls in a weak field, because your opps generally don’t know when to reopen or when to convert (or even when to pass as responder, to await a reopening double. Plus defence is the most difficpart of the game so weak defenders often let declarer off the hook on which he had impaled himself.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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