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Physical Contact How serious?

#1 User is offline   bmonger 

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Posted 2021-September-26, 10:35

In a F2F tournament, my partner reached for the bidding box and LHO reached over and put a hand over partners bidding box to block partner from bidding, resulting in physical contact with partner's hand. LHO said afterwards that the circumstance was that partner had to wait 10 seconds before bidding. Obviously, LHO could have just said that and should never have used a hand to block. I got rather angry and told LHO how inappropriate this was, partner couldn't have cared less. LHO did apologize. I didn't call the director. My question is, are there rules that would cover this situation, and if so, how serious an infraction would it be? My personal feeling was that this was extremely serious and the player probably should have been thrown out of the tournament, but nobody other than me seemed to think it was a big deal.
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#2 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-September-26, 11:58

My opinion is that it isn't extremely serious and advocating throwing them out of the tournament is an over-reaction. If you feel so strongly about it, you should have called the director and explained the situation, and let them decide the best course of action. It sounds like LHO momentarily went into control freak mode, and they apologised when you called them out. If it was a careless over-reaction by LHO and they are genuinely sorry, that should be the end of it.
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#3 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-September-26, 12:40

Having an opponent reach into the bidding box after our side has made a jump bid, requiring that the opponent whose turn it now is pause…without playacting….is extremely annoying. By doing so the opponent is unethically giving information to his partner…that his bid is so clear that there is no need to think.

Put it this way…if done intentionally (and my feeling is that these players are not usually doing this intentionally), it would be a form of cheating.

That doesn’t excuse trying to physically cover the bidding box…that sort of self-help remedy has no more place in the game than your partner’s unethical insta-bid attempt.

But it does suggest that your ire at the opponent is overblown.

You want to stop prompting opps to act that way? Tell your partner to act ethically…and if you felt that he was entitled to insta-bid, learn ethics yourself.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#4 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-September-26, 12:49

Maybe they could invent a red card to indicate that opponent must wait 10 seconds before calling B-)

I think OP did well to ask, but I hope he now realises how far off base he is.
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#5 User is offline   bmonger 

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Posted 2021-September-26, 13:46

Thanks for your reply. You didn't address my question about the physical contact. It was not a situation of simply covering the bidding box.

View Postmikeh, on 2021-September-26, 12:40, said:

Having an opponent reach into the bidding box after our side has made a jump bid,
snip ...
You want to stop prompting opps to act that way? Tell your partner to act ethically…and if you felt that he was entitled to insta-bid, learn ethics yourself.

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#6 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-September-26, 13:53

View Postbmonger, on 2021-September-26, 13:46, said:

Thanks for your reply. You didn't address my question about the physical contact. It was not a situation of simply covering the bidding box.

I got the impression, from the way you worded your OP, that the physical contact was incidental to the (wrong) attempt to block access to the bidding box.

Since it was wrong to attempt to block such access, by definition the contact was also wrong.

Of course, your partner had NO business attempting an insta-pass.

So your partner was out of line, your opponent was out of line and you were out of line…you probably more than anyone else….asking for an opp to be ejected for a mistake such as you describe is incredible. It’s unfair to the opps and it’s even more unfair to the game, even if there was someone available to fill in.

Plus it sure seemed, from your OP, that you had zero concerns about your partner’s flagrantly unethical behaviour.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#7 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-September-26, 14:09

I think pre-Covid it would be next to nothing, but in these times, unwanted physical contact is seen a bit differently.

In AITA terminology this is a clear ESH. (to paraphrase, nobody comes out of this with any credit)
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#8 User is online   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-September-26, 19:18

CALL THE DIRECTOR.

We can't tell you who's right and who's wrong (although there's a lot of blame to go around). But if the director isn't there, everybody's in the wrong. And the director doesn't get to educate any of the wrongdoers about it, so they will (all of they will) keep doing this.

On the other hand, instead of what they did, the opponents should CALL THE DIRECTOR. The UI has already been passed, any of this playacting is just "I want you to know you Dun Wrong, and to feel bad". The director will protect them against your partner's imProper behaviour (or more specifically, against you not carefully avoiding using the information transmitted by that behaviour), and will be able to educate much better than they could (even if they were perfect educators and knew the Law perfectly, at this point they are your opponents, and you will not listen the same way you would to an unbiased observer).

I agree with Cyberyeti, I'd be more uncomfortable with this than before, but this kind of behaviour Caused Issues even in the before time. Of course, having the opponents continue to gain an advantage via tempo over their preempts Causes Issues, too.

But that's what the Director is for. Use them.
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#9 User is offline   bmonger 

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Posted 2021-September-27, 17:05

Thank you! What I didn't put in my original post is that LHO was a large, physically intimidating man, and my partner is a 95 pound little old lady. From my viewpoint across the table, it initially looked like she reached for the bidding box and he batted her hand away. I got extremely angry. Upon reflection, I realized that it was just a coincidence that they both reached for the box at the same time and his large hand won. That situation was resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

I probably shouldn't even have included that as an example, because it just got me to thinking and what I really wanted to know is if ACBL has rules specific to physical contact.

View Postmycroft, on 2021-September-26, 19:18, said:

CALL THE DIRECTOR.

We can't tell you who's right and who's wrong (although there's a lot of blame to go around). But if the director isn't there, everybody's in the wrong. And the director doesn't get to educate any snip...
But that's what the Director is for. Use them.

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#10 User is online   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-September-27, 17:45

Yes there are policies on inappropriate behaviour, but not specifically physical contact.

In either case, if you don't call the director, they get to do what they want. Even if they're an ex-defenceman for the Red Wings and you're a - well, me.

But do train your 95 pound little old lady to think after all preempts. You don't get as obnoxious responses that way.
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
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#11 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-September-28, 02:57

View Postbmonger, on 2021-September-27, 17:05, said:

Thank you! What I didn't put in my original post is that LHO was a large, physically intimidating man, and my partner is a 95 pound little old lady.


You didn't need to put it in your post because it is irrelevant as to what you all should have done in the situation, that is call the director if you were upset by LHO's actions.
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#12 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2021-September-29, 10:02

If he had actually batted her hand away as you initially thought, that would certainly be inappropriate. Some might even consider it a minor form of assault (although I don't think it would rise to the severity that would be illegal).

But if he was just putting his hand over the bidding box to block her ability to pull a card, it's much less serious. The physical contact seems to have been an accident, he wasn't deliberately touching her.

#13 User is online   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-September-29, 14:29

It is irrelevant to what needs to be done, but it is not irrelevant to the situation. Intimidating Little Old Ladies when male and linebacker-adjacent is a more powerful trick than if I do it, or if another Little Old Lady does it. It can be harder to react correctly. The player should know that, and should try harder to do the right thing rather than attempt to get their way by intimidation (or "friendly gesture" that he knows (if he thinks about it) could be intimidating).

But again, lots of blame to go around on almost all at the table. The only person that can ensure that none of the imProper behaviours continue is the director, and if they're not made aware, they can't do it either.
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
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#14 User is offline   ladydoc 

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Posted 2021-October-09, 17:05

 bmonger, on 2021-September-26, 10:35, said:

In a F2F tournament, my partner reached for the bidding box and LHO reached over and put a hand over partners bidding box to block partner from bidding, resulting in physical contact with partner's hand. LHO said afterwards that the circumstance was that partner had to wait 10 seconds before bidding. Obviously, LHO could have just said that and should never have used a hand to block. I got rather angry and told LHO how inappropriate this was, partner couldn't have cared less. LHO did apologize. I didn't call the director. My question is, are there rules that would cover this situation, and if so, how serious an infraction would it be? My personal feeling was that this was extremely serious and the player probably should have been thrown out of the tournament, but nobody other than me seemed to think it was a big deal.


I think you were over reacting, bmonger.
Calm down and think about the game. let it go.
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#15 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2021-October-10, 18:02

"I got very angry".

That was your first mistake.

"I didn't call the director".

That was your second mistake.
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