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No blame!

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-April-13, 05:52



I have not seen a hand like this before & I'm not losing any sleep over it :P
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#2 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-April-13, 06:41

north should bid 3. it can be wrong but not bidding it is losing bridge. north has 11+ total points in support of s. having a void in partner's first suit is not a reason not to raise. your values may be mirrored and 4 can not be made, but at least give partner an opportunity to bid it. passing goes nowhere.
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#3 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-April-13, 07:57

North should bid 4, not 3 (or 4 if that is a fitbid, but since 1NT was forcing that may be misunderstood/reserved for a different type of hand).
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#4 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-April-13, 08:13

View PostLBengtsson, on 2021-April-13, 06:41, said:

north has 11+ total points in support of s

Or 13, if you count support points the way Goren did.
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#5 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-April-13, 08:28

However, Dealer (the program) says that the North hand will produce only 8.37 tricks on average in a heart contract (played by South) opposite a hand with 11 hcp and 5422 shape.
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#6 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-April-13, 09:14

View Postnullve, on 2021-April-13, 08:28, said:

However, Dealer (the program) says that the North hand will produce only 8.37 tricks on average in a heart contract (played by South) opposite a hand with 11 hcp and 5422 shape.


On best defence which you may well not get. It may not be apparent you have to lead a trump, particularly a singleton trump or Jx(x) single dummy.
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#7 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-April-13, 09:33

View Postnullve, on 2021-April-13, 08:28, said:

However, Dealer (the program) says that the North hand will produce only 8.37 tricks on average in a heart contract (played by South) opposite a hand with 11 hcp and 5422 shape.



With thinking like that, I assume you donít have invitational bids in your system. After all, the point of an invitational bid is to ask partner if he has something more than a minimum, and passing 2H assumes not only a terrible minimum but also great defence. Heck, with that philosophy, I assume you rarely get out of bed in the morning, since bed is often the safest place to be.

*I do recognize that you were likely being sarcastic
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#8 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-April-13, 10:00

It is important to keep in mind in most standard-ish methods that opener can have as much as 17-ish and make a minimum new suit rebid, so, it is important to keep the bidding alive if reasonable. IMO, the only time pass could be considered O.K. is at matchpoints and needing a top. On the other hand, IMO, the only time 4H would be O.K. is at imps near the end of the match and in desperate need of a swing. After all, at this point in the auction a 4-4 heart fit is all that can be assumed.


The Goldilocks bid would be whatever invitation you play - 3H maybe?
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#9 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2021-April-13, 10:47

Have the paramedics been called for N yet?
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#10 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-April-13, 12:03

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-April-13, 10:00, said:

It is important to keep in mind in most standard-ish methods that opener can have as much as 17-ish and make a minimum new suit rebid, so, it is important to keep the bidding alive if reasonable. IMO, the only time pass could be considered O.K. is at matchpoints and needing a top. On the other hand, IMO, the only time 4H would be O.K. is at imps near the end of the match and in desperate need of a swing. After all, at this point in the auction a 4-4 heart fit is all that can be assumed.


The Goldilocks bid would be whatever invitation you play - 3H maybe?

It was MP, we didn't need a top and yes, 3 would have been invitational.

The question that is puzzling me with this hand is how 12/14 other pairs got to the contract they did.
It was played 14 times, always by West.
It was played once in 1 and all other times in some number of hearts.
We are the only pair in the room playing forcing-semi forcing 1nt.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#11 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-April-13, 12:30

View Postjillybean, on 2021-April-13, 12:03, said:

It was MP, we didn't need a top and yes, 3 would have been invitational.

The question that is puzzling me with this hand is how 12/14 other pairs got to the contract they did.
It was played 14 times, always by West.
It was played once in 1 and all other times in some number of hearts.
We are the only pair in the room playing forcing-semi forcing 1nt.


You don't have to be playing forcing 1NT to bid 1NT when it is proper - which it would be opposite this 1S opening (please note that the one time it was played in 1S more than likely was someone masterminding the bidding because of the spade void).

Playing the most vanilla system you can think of it should go: 1S-1N-2H-3H.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#12 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-April-13, 12:46

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-April-13, 12:30, said:

You don't have to be playing forcing 1NT to bid 1NT when it is proper - which it would be opposite this 1S opening (please note that the one time it was played in 1S more than likely was someone masterminding the bidding because of the spade void).

Playing the most vanilla system you can think of it should go: 1S-1N-2H-3H.

In this field, I doubt that 12/14 pairs bid 1nt/1. I think it's more likely that West opened 1
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#13 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-April-13, 13:39

View Postjillybean, on 2021-April-13, 12:46, said:

In this field, I doubt that 12/14 pairs bid 1nt/1. I think it's more likely that West opened 1


1 could easily be a limited precision spade deciding the singleton Q didn't make it worth 16 and partner passed on the misfit
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#14 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-April-13, 17:15

Masterminding in Precision is still masterminding. Besides, I counted 16 points in partnerís hand so there wouldnít be a 1 spade bid😏
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#15 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-April-13, 17:26

No Precision in this game.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#16 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-April-14, 03:03

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-April-13, 17:15, said:

Masterminding in Precision is still masterminding. Besides, I counted 16 points in partner’s hand so there wouldn’t be a 1 spade bid��


I said quite clearly you might downgrade because of the stiff Q, but it appears nobody was playing limited openings. Yes it is masterminding, but it's a lot less dangerous if partner can't have a 19 count.
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#17 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2021-April-14, 05:58

4h by north

I see no strong reason to assume opener is dead minimum and we need little more than a minimum to make game. QJTxx AKxxx x xx should make even if the club K is wrong.
A hand such as AKQJT Jxxxx xx K might go down so a 3h bid asking for opener to go to game is just creating another guess.
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#18 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-April-14, 08:42

I donít understand a 4H bid, compelling partner to hold 5 hearts in this auction - and if he does he can judge whether or not the 9-card fit deserves a game bid after a raise to 3 hearts can he not?

Why canít the opening hand be AQxxx Axxx Qx xx? 3H is more than enough in that case.
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#19 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-April-14, 11:14

View PostCyberyeti, on 2021-April-14, 03:03, said:

I said quite clearly you might downgrade because of the stiff Q, but it appears nobody was playing limited openings. Yes it is masterminding, but it's a lot less dangerous if partner can't have a 19 count.


Not trying to start a tit-for-tat but the people I knew who played Precision (including me) would be more likely to upgrade this hand than downgrade as a 4-card fit and the spade king makes game a good bet.

Of course, the other side of that coin is that if you do open 1S some play a Precision style where the jump to 3H shows 5-5 without a game force, so there is more reason to discount the diamond Q and downgrade.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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