[AL78]

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As South, you pick up a once in a lifetime hand. 6♥ is there, can you devise a route to find it? Only two pairs out of 14 at my club found it.

[Cyberyeti]

2♣-2♦(neg)-3♣(FG)-3♦-3♥-4♥-4♠(aces)-4N(0)-6♥

Possible for N to bid 3♥ over 3♣, in which case south launches straight into keycard

[AL78]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-December-10, 05:00, said:

2♣-2♦(neg)-3♣(FG)-3♦-3♥-4♥-4♠(aces)-4N(0)-6♥

Possible for N to bid 3♥ over 3♣, in which case south launches straight into keycard

That is a nice simple auction. I've not heard of the next suit up as an ace ask, does that apply for all trump suits except spades?

[Cyberyeti]

AL78, on 2020-December-10, 05:05, said:

That is a nice simple auction. I've not heard of the next suit up as an ace ask, does that apply for all trump suits except spades?

Called kickback, it's not uncommon and yes, works for everything except spades, 4N subs as voidwood in the ace asking suit in many auctions where it doesn't mean something else. There are some auctions I would thoroughly recommend it in even if you don't generally play it, 1N-2♣/♦-2♥- because 4N is quantitative, playing 4♠ as ace asking seems an improvement for example.

We actually use the same next suit up tech for GSF so that you get a full set of responses.

[Zelandakh]

AL78, on 2020-December-10, 05:05, said:

That is a nice simple auction.

I have an even simpler one for you:

P - 2♣; 2♥(neg) - 3♣; 3♥(5+) - 6♥

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2020-December-10, 08:56, said:

I have an even simpler one for you:

P - 2♣; 2♥(neg) - 3♣; 3♥(5+) - 6♥

Unfortunately partner had AKxx, void, AKxx, AKQJ10 and you played 3N-1 rather than 7♦ when he misguessed to bid 3N (or he bid 3♠ and you did)

[mycroft]

Strong three-suiters suck; if you open 2♣, you are hooped on some hands (if responder in Cyberyeti's case bids 3♦, just swap the reds and you're in 3NT instead of 7♥, no? If you're going to pull 3NT to 4♥ after 3♦, you're going to pull 3NT to 4♦ after 3♥), if you open at the 1 level, you sometimes score up +190 or +260. The one in the OP is strong enough that you're effectively committing to slam opposite a shapely yarborough, not game, so 3NT isn't the stop-sign trap it would be with a "simple" 2-loser 24-count, but eventually you get to a point where the danger of being passed in 1 is less than the danger of not being able to find your fit, or getting too high before you do, or missing 3NT+1 and having to play 5♦.

[nige1]

AL78 'As South, you pick up a once in a lifetime hand. 6♥ is there, can you devise a route to find it? Only two pairs out of 14 at my club found it.'
+++++++++++++++++++++
2/1 makes it relatively easy.

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[Cyberyeti]

mycroft, on 2020-December-10, 11:12, said:

Strong three-suiters suck; if you open 2♣, you are hooped on some hands (if responder in Cyberyeti's case bids 3♦, just swap the reds and you're in 3NT instead of 7♥, no? If you're going to pull 3NT to 4♥ after 3♦, you're going to pull 3NT to 4♦ after 3♥), if you open at the 1 level, you sometimes score up +190 or +260. The one in the OP is strong enough that you're effectively committing to slam opposite a shapely yarborough, not game, so 3NT isn't the stop-sign trap it would be with a "simple" 2-loser 24-count, but eventually you get to a point where the danger of being passed in 1 is less than the danger of not being able to find your fit, or getting too high before you do, or missing 3NT+1 and having to play 5♦.

No because you bid 3♥ over 3♦ with 4405, responder is simply treating his hand as if he has 5 diamonds and 4 hearts given the lack of honours in the heart suit. If you're suggesting I had ♥ QJxxx and ♦ xxxxx I would bid 3♥.

[Zelandakh]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-December-10, 10:04, said:

Unfortunately partner had AKxx, void, AKxx, AKQJ10 and you played 3N-1 rather than 7♦ when he misguessed to bid 3N (or he bid 3♠ and you did)

No idiot is going to raise hearts with that hand. Geesh.

[fromageGB]

Much easier with a strong (21+) 3-suiter ability. We bid
2♦ (weak both majors or 21+ 3-suiter, so 100% forcing) - 2♥ (pick major to play)
3♦ (21+ 3-suiter short diamonds) - 3♥ (picks trumps)
4♦ (4 steps of 2 = 27/28 - 4♠ (singleton or void ask - it is a combined 30/31 and cross ruff, worth looking for slam) (4♥ would be signoff, so this is the next free step.)
4NT (singleton) - 6♥ (27 or 28 out of 34 means opener cannot be missing 2 aces, and even if 6 is finessing the trump K it is worth it.)

The final round is unnecessary, as responder could bid 6♥ directly over 4♦, but as these hands don't happen often, it is good to practice the system bids!

If the answer was "void" it would be an "ace" reply, and Opener shows all of AKQAAA. A missing side K means responder will stop at 6 anyway though.

[Zelandakh]

fromageGB, on 2020-December-10, 13:31, said:

Much easier with a strong (21+) 3-suiter ability.

There is some mildly interesting system discussion that can be attached to this hand.

Starting with fromage's suggestion, I have been a big believer in having a strong 3-suiter auction where possible and have played systems including them with both a Reverse Benji and Strong Club basis. Multi is of course also possible but imho is somewhat less effective. My experience is that including 5431 shapes here is probably not a winner, tempting as it is to increase the frequency of the gadget. A lot of pairs also prefer to use one-under calls for the short suit, so 3♣ for diamond shortage, although in a Multi context that is not so clear since so little is known of Responder's hand. There is also the question of how rebids work over something like a 3♠ (or higher) response - I know of at least one Expert (international) pair that have has a disaster here getting this wrong.

Of perhaps more practical interest to the majority here is a 2♣ opening followed by a 3♣ rebid. It is very popular here to play that a 3♦ Responder's Rebid is artificial and Stayman-like, meaning that a direct 3M call shows 5+. It turns out that differentiating between 4 and 5 card majors here is more important than showing real diamonds. Reduce Opener's strength a little and reverse the majors for an example of why.

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2020-December-10, 13:28, said:

No idiot is going to raise hearts with that hand. Geesh.

Please read a post before writing responses to it, I never suggested they were

[mycroft]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-December-10, 12:02, said:

No because you bid 3♥ over 3♦ with 4405, responder is simply treating his hand as if he has 5 diamonds and 4 hearts given the lack of honours in the heart suit. If you're suggesting I had ♥ QJxxx and ♦ xxxxx I would bid 3♥.

Sure, that makes sense. Not sure what I was thinking about. That doesn't mean I want to open a three-suiter 2♣ if I can avoid it, though.

[AL78]

Another interesting (to me) point has cropped up after I found out another friend of mine played the hand in 3♣ after the auction 2♣ - 2♦, 3♣ - P. They are playing three weak twos and it looks like they have crammed the strong Acol twos and game forcing hands into the 2♣ opening. Her partner claimed if she wanted her to bid again, she should have bid 2NT at her second bid. What do those playing three weak twos typically do with the 2♣ bid, do they open the eight playing trick hands at the one level and keep the 2♣ opening as game forcing?

[Cyberyeti]

mycroft, on 2020-December-10, 16:03, said:

Sure, that makes sense. Not sure what I was thinking about. That doesn't mean I want to open a three-suiter 2♣ if I can avoid it, though.

The one in the OP is so big you have little choice, but in principle I agree.

We used to have strong 3 suiter in our multi

[mikeh]

Picking up on Zel’s post, imo it is essential to play that a 3C rebid by the 2C opener is forcing, and that responder’s 3D call over 3C is just a noise, saying very little other than that responder lacks a 5+ major (he’d bid it) and doesn’t want to go past 3N.

IOW, he may even have club support, but will not, then, have real shortness anywhere.

I write this in the context of playing 2C 2H as denying an Ace or King, but it works just as well when one has no immediate negative or 2D is your negative response.

Note that playing 3D as a noise doesn’t mean it promises a 4 card major. Often opener is about to bid 3N, and it’s usually best if the strong hand is declarer. Of course, opener will show a major over 3D should he hold one.

Thus I think my auction would be as Zel first posted: 2C 2H 3C 3H 6H

Moreover, I can’t, in my partnerships, bid 3D over 3C even were I prepared to lie about my distribution, and I rarely lie about shape. 3D denies a 5 card major (I suppose 5=6 reds might cause a problem but I’ve never had the issue and would show th3 major anyway)


Edit: having played multi with a strong 4441 option, I vastly prefer it without. One of the admittedly infrequent benefits of multi is that responder, with a weak hand and both majors, can pretty much bid as he pleases when the multi is only a weak two bid. But responder has to take it slow when opener could hold a big hand. Since he very rarely does, this gives 4th seat easy entry into the auction.

It is easy to overlook, when designing a bidding system, the utility of making life difficult for the opps. We tend to focus on making life easy for us, but the other side of the coin is also important. Martens wrote an entire, and good, book on designing methods that convey necessary information while minimizing disclosure of information to the opponents (I’m speaking of bidding, not suggesting providing less than full disclosure. Using 1N 2S as either clubs or an invite in notrump is one such...it conceals opener’s major holdings, unlike having to go through stayman to invite in notrump)

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2020-December-10, 18:00, said:

Edit: having played multi with a strong 4441 option, I vastly prefer it without. One of the admittedly infrequent benefits of multi is that responder, with a weak hand and both majors, can pretty much bid as he pleases when the multi is only a weak two bid. But responder has to take it slow when opener could hold a big hand. Since he very rarely does, this gives 4th seat easy entry into the auction.

Not necessarily, we used to play 2♦-P-3N was 4-4 in the majors, willing to bid game but not slam opposite the minimum strong bal/4441 options (we did NOT have strong 2m in the multi), this sorted some of the issues particularly because 2♦-3N-4M was ambiguous if you hold a 13 count with one or both minors.

[shyams]

I recall reading about a "gadget" where someone (probably on BBF) suggested a 2♣ opening followed by a jump in major as the rebid to show 4M and 5+ m (the m can be either suit).

This is especially true if one plays 2♣ followed by 2(any non NT) as forcing to game. You don't need a jump rebid. And those few occasions when one has a monster hand + a solid long trump (i.e. the classic jump rebid by 2♣ opener), there is enough space to show the solid unbroken trump later.

[mikeh]

shyams, on 2020-December-10, 19:04, said:

I recall reading about a "gadget" where someone (probably on BBF) suggested a 2♣ opening followed by a jump in major as the rebid to show 4M and 5+ m (the m can be either suit).

This is especially true if one plays 2♣ followed by 2(any non NT) as forcing to game. You don't need a jump rebid. And those few occasions when one has a monster hand + a solid long trump (i.e. the classic jump rebid by 2♣ opener), there is enough space to show the solid unbroken trump later.

A number of pairs use 2C 2D 3M as 4 cards in the major and longer diamonds. It has been called JAWS, for a reason that I no longer recall. I played it myself for a few sessions, but don’t recall it ever coming up.

Since one can play 2C 2D 3C 3D as a ‘noise’, allowing opener to show a major, there is little need for using the 3M jump by opener as ‘either’ minor. Plus using it as either minor screws responder, who has an unpleasant guess.