[raspeball]

When i watched the Over My Shoulder with Joel Woolridge (link- see hand 15 starting 2 hours into the video)
he explains his methods like this:

1nt-2♣
2♦-2♠= Mild invite


1nt-2♥
2♠-2nt="4 card minor, unspecified, gf"

I was wondering if anybody had played like this, and what merits there are to this.

I assume this means that :
1nt-2♥
2♠-3♣/♦ is 5-5 in spades and the suit bid, invitational to game?

[spotlight7]

raspeball, on 2020-June-07, 13:09, said:

When i watched the Over My Shoulder with Joel Woolridge (link- see hand 15 starting 2 hours into the video)
he explains his methods like this:

1nt-2♣
2♦-2♠= Mild invite


1nt-2♥
2♠-2nt="4 card minor, unspecified, gf"

I was wondering if anybody had played like this, and what merits there are to this.

I assume this means that :
1nt-2♥
2♠-3♣/♦ is 5-5 in spades and the suit bid, invitational to game?

Al Roth at one time played 1N-2D-2H-2S* as art. GF.

He also played 1N-2H-2S*-2NT* as art. GF

The low level GF allowed both players room to show their values.


1N-2D-2H-3m showed 5-5 inv.

1N-2H-2S-3m showed 5-5 inv.

[mikeh]

A lot of experts use secondary transfers. This, and Woolridge’s approach, mean that one cannot bid 2H, transferring to spades, and then bid 2N, inviting to either spades or notrump. This is solved by going through stayman with 5 spades and invitational values.

In my current partnerships, after 1N 2H 2S, 2N is gf with clubs, and so on. Transfers are generally powerful tools. Note that we can retransfer to 3S, via 3H, or bid 3S over 2S. We use the retransfer to show a different hand....using different methods in the two partnerships.

After 1N 2D 2H, 2S is the invitational bid, with 5H and offering a choice of partscores or games, and 2N is clubs, and so on

In one partnership we experimented with the second transfer being invitational or better, but felt that it worked more effectively if played as gf.

[raspeball]

mikeh, on 2020-June-09, 00:31, said:

A lot of experts use secondary transfers. This, and Woolridge’s approach, mean that one cannot bid 2H, transferring to spades, and then bid 2N, inviting to either spades or notrump. This is solved by going through stayman with 5 spades and invitational values.

In my current partnerships, after 1N 2H 2S, 2N is gf with clubs, and so on. Transfers are generally powerful tools. Note that we can retransfer to 3S, via 3H, or bid 3S over 2S. We use the retransfer to show a different hand....using different methods in the two partnerships.

After 1N 2D 2H, 2S is the invitational bid, with 5H and offering a choice of partscores or games, and 2N is clubs, and so on

In one partnership we experimented with the second transfer being invitational or better, but felt that it worked more effectively if played as gf.

The reason i posted (Maybe not to clearly stated in my first post ) was that I was surprised by the method that Joel were using. It seems like secondary transfers is better than what he used.
If you use 1N 2D; 2H 2N as game-forcing with one minor (I assume it meant: 5+♠ and 4(5)+♣/♦), you loose a bit of space when opener wants to find out what responder have.

It seems like the method of using 1N 2D; 2H 2N as 5+♠ and 4(5)+♣ and game-invitational strength + is superior to Joels agreement.
When this was discussed recently on Bridgewinners, it seemed like many preferred the above sequence to be game-forcing transfer (And the arguments given were convincing to me.)

So my question really is: Does the method that Joel uses have other advantages compared to the two alternative methods?

[awm]

Joel’s method is probably better at concealing dummy distribution from the opening lead in the common case that he plays 4♠.

It’s also generally useful to distinguish 5-4 from 5-5 (the latter can make slam pretty light opposite the right cards) and that may be part of what he is doing, or he may have other uses for the 3m rebids.

I doubt that 1nt-2♥-2♠-3m is 5-5 invitational here.

[raspeball]

awm, on 2020-June-09, 08:42, said:

Joel’s method is probably better at concealing dummy distribution from the opening lead in the common case that he plays 4♠.

It’s also generally useful to distinguish 5-4 from 5-5 (the latter can make slam pretty light opposite the right cards) and that may be part of what he is doing, or he may have other uses for the 3m rebids.

I doubt that 1nt-2♥-2♠-3m is 5-5 invitational here.

That makes sense. Have anybody used this method, so that they know what the 3♣/♦ rebids might be used for?

[apollo1201]

raspeball, on 2020-June-09, 09:14, said:

That makes sense. Have anybody used this method, so that they know what the 3♣/♦ rebids might be used for?

A friend of mine plays indeed that, where 2N is a GF relay, often with 5M 4m and 31, and not sure of strain. Opener is due to show M fit as a priority, or aim for 3NT by bidding it with appropriate stoppers or cueing them. I think responder can be 5422 but a bad m suit, or have 6M and no m with slam invitational as well but I am not too sure how this gets distinguished later.

3m rebid shows GF, 5M and 5m. It warns opener that 3NT is not the priority. Opener has to show M fit first but is welcome to give a m fit and go past 3NT. 5422 with concentrated values and a slam potential might also bid 3m.

The method basically releases opener from the stress of what to do with a fair hand and a good m fit over a more nebulous 3m rebid.

It helps distinguishing hands like

AQxxx
x
KJxxx
xx

from

AQxxx
x
Jxxx
Kxx

You cant really punt 3NT with that (well, scientifically...😉), but dont dream either of playing an 11-trick game.

[Zelandakh]

1NT - 2♦; 2♥
--
2♠ = 5♥ INV; or 4+♣ GF; or 6+♥ SI
... - 2N = min <3♥, NF
... - ... - 3♣ = 4♣ GF
... - ... - 3♦ = 5+♣ GF
... - ... - 3♥ = 6+♥ SI
... - 3♣ = max <3♥, GF
... - ... - 3♦ = 4+♣ GF
... - ... - 3♥ = 6+♥ SI
... - 3♦ = max 3♥, GF
... - 3♥ = min 3♥, NF
2N = 5♥4♠ INV
3♣ = 4+♦ GF
3♦ = 5+♠ GF
3♥ = 6+♥ INV
--

[raspeball]

Zelandakh, on 2020-June-10, 15:09, said:

1NT - 2♦; 2♥
--
2♠ = 5♥ INV; or 4+♣ GF; or 6+♥ SI
... - 2N = min <3♥, NF
... - ... - 3♣ = 4♣ GF
... - ... - 3♦ = 5+♣ GF
... - ... - 3♥ = 6+♥ SI
... - 3♣ = max <3♥, GF
... - ... - 3♦ = 4+♣ GF
... - ... - 3♥ = 6+♥ SI
... - 3♦ = max 3♥, GF
... - 3♥ = min 3♥, NF
2N = 5♥4♠ INV
3♣ = 4+♦ GF
3♦ = 5+♠ GF
3♥ = 6+♠ INV
--

Thanks. That's a interesting method!
It solves one of the problems with similar methods when you hold 5 hearts and 4 spades game-invitational (If you still want to use garbage/crawling stayman)
I assume that the two last bids have a typo?

3♦ = 5+♠ GF Should this be 5+ ♥? Or did you mean a hand with 5 ♥ and 5♠ game-forcing?
3♥ = 6+♠ INV Should this be 6+ ♥?

[raspeball]

apollo1201, on 2020-June-10, 14:38, said:

A friend of mine plays indeed that, where 2N is a GF relay, often with 5M 4m and 31, and not sure of strain. Opener is due to show M fit as a priority, or aim for 3NT by bidding it with appropriate stoppers or cueing them. I think responder can be 5422 but a bad m suit, or have 6M and no m with slam invitational as well but I am not too sure how this gets distinguished later.

3m rebid shows GF, 5M and 5m. It warns opener that 3NT is not the priority. Opener has to show M fit first but is welcome to give a m fit and go past 3NT. 5422 with concentrated values and a slam potential might also bid 3m.

The method basically releases opener from the stress of what to do with a fair hand and a good m fit over a more nebulous 3m rebid.

It helps distinguishing hands like

AQxxx
x
KJxxx
xx

from

AQxxx
x
Jxxx
Kxx

You cant really punt 3NT with that (well, scientifically...😉), but dont dream either of playing an 11-trick game.

Also interesting !

I guess GF with 6-4 could also be included in the hands that transfers to a major, and rebids 3 minor?

Some sorting out to be done after the 2nt rebid showing semibalanced hand with 5-4-3-1 or 5-4-2-2 typically.
(Do you want responder to show his long suit, and then weakness?)

[Zelandakh]

raspeball, on 2020-June-11, 02:18, said:

Thanks. That's a interesting method!
It solves one of the problems with similar methods when you hold 5 hearts and 4 spades game-invitational (If you still want to use garbage/crawling stayman)
I assume that the two last bids have a typo?

3♦ = 5+♠ GF Should this be 5+ ♥? Or did you mean a hand with 5 ♥ and 5♠ game-forcing?
3♥ = 6+♠ INV Should this be 6+ ♥?

Sorry, you are right. The last should be 6+♥; in essence the sequence replaces a traditional natural, slammy 3♥ response.
The 3♦ rebid shows at least 5-5 in the majors and a game-forcing hand, similar to the sequence 1NT - 2♥; 2♠ - 3♥ in BBO Standard but allowing hearts to be agreed at the 3 level and making Opener the declarer for either major.

[raspeball]

Zelandakh, on 2020-June-11, 13:17, said:

Sorry, you are right. The last should be 6+♥; in essence the sequence replaces a traditional natural, slammy 3♥ response.
The 3♦ rebid shows at least 5-5 in the majors and a game-forcing hand, similar to the sequence 1NT - 2♥; 2♠ - 3♥ in BBO Standard but allowing hearts to be agreed at the 3 level and making Opener the declarer for either major.

Yes the 3♦ showing 5-5 in major game-forcing is nice.

There appears to be two ways to make a slam-invite with 6 hearts is that correct?
1nt-2♦;
2♥-3♥

1nt-2♦;
2♥-2♠
2nt/3♣-3♥

Is that correct? Is there a way to show 6 card heart and game-invite?

[Zelandakh]

raspeball, on 2020-June-12, 04:14, said:

Is that correct? Is there a way to show 6 card heart and game-invite?

Oh dear, I seem to be messing this up rather. The 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 3♥ sequence is invitational. I will edit the earlier post with corrections so that it is hopefully clearer.

[apollo1201]

raspeball, on 2020-June-11, 02:43, said:

Also interesting !

I guess GF with 6-4 could also be included in the hands that transfers to a major, and rebids 3 minor?

Some sorting out to be done after the 2nt rebid showing semibalanced hand with 5-4-3-1 or 5-4-2-2 typically.
(Do you want responder to show his long suit, and then weakness?)

It seems my friend doesn’t have too much elaborated methods. Opener bids « naturally » a 4 or 5-cd « acceptable » (as regards honors) minor suit over 2NT when not fitted for the M. Responder bids 4m if he’s pleased or cues if that wasn’t his weak spot still targeting 3NT, or bids 4M with 6-cd as a small slam try (I guess opener who in that case only has a M doubleton rarely goes on). If opener bids 3M to confirm the fit, well, responder will know what to do (hopefully).

I guess you can probably imagine a 3C relay structure where responder develops his hand.

6M and 4m maybe if you are after a slam that might play better in a 44, but otherwise just bid 4M I guess.