Is it Just Me? Or.... Crazy Robots
#1
Posted 2019-March-31, 20:01
What is this? Surely this system needs some cleaning up? I also see people winning tournaments by using non-standard bids, for example, opening with a four-card major and similar practices which really discourage me from shelling out good money just to pit myself against a system that can be gamed and cannot be relied up.
Anyone else feel this way?
#2
Posted 2019-March-31, 20:19
This isn't to defend GIB, which is horrible, but as problems with GIB goes I'm having a hard time drumming up much sympathy over this one.
#3
Posted 2019-March-31, 20:35
#4
Posted 2019-April-01, 02:31
#5
Posted 2019-April-01, 08:29
#8
Posted 2019-April-02, 19:57
The bidding went as follows (opponents passed on all bids):
South - 1♦
North - 1♠
South - 2♥
North - 2NT
When dummy went down, here's what my partner had.
In real life, if you and your partner were looking for a trump fit, and you had four hearts in your hand when your partner bid 2 hearts, would you REALLY bid 2 NT? Honestly, I am struggling to understand and would be grateful if anyone could explain.
#9
Posted 2019-April-03, 02:57
So here's the deal:A reverse by opener these days, as played by most people, and GIB, shows extra values, but does *not* guarantee game forcing values, and guarantees a third bid by opener. Once you get past the beginning stage of learning bidding, you should learn various structures people play to limit responder's and opener's hands, so that you can sometimes sensibly stop in a partial when both hands are minimum but reach games when enough values are held.
You might want to read the "primer on reverse bidding" sticky at the top of the intermediate/advanced section of this forum, particularly mikeh's first post.
So the idea is that on this hand, responder is super minimum, only 5 HCP, Qs and Js, and mostly not in partner's suits. It wants to honor the force since you might be very strong (here with 20), but it doesn't really want you to bid game if you had a min reverse with 17 or a good 16, as you might have trouble even just making 3. But on the other hand if it had a good hand, it might want to raise to 3H forcing, preserving bidding room to explore slam (rather than awkward jump to 4h, 4nt, etc. when it doesn't know whether you have spade fit/control/club control etc.). So the way most people do it, you raise directly to 3H with good hands (decent 8+ or so), GF, but bid 2nt (*forcing*, but often a bad hand) with the bad hands. 2nt shows some subset of hands like:
- weak hand with heart support (5+s, 4+H), 7- hcp, wanting to stop in 3H opposite a minimum range (16+-18- or so) reverse, planning 3H as its 3rd bid (nf).
- weak hand with only 4 spades, support/preference for opener's minor, planning to pass if opener repeats minor
- some range of hands by agreement that plan to bid 2nt then 3nt, showing a hand weaker than a direct 3nt (I personally prefer 8-11 for this, playing direct 3nt as 12-14, opinions differ as to best exact ranges)
- some range of hands planning 2nt followed by 4nt (or more), that is stronger than a direct jump to 3nt (for me, 15+), no fit for either of partner's suits.
So opener with minimum reverse typically just rebids minor over 2nt (there is some difference of opinion on what opener's say 3c means after 1d-1s-2h-2nt-3c; some play that 3c is just kind of semi-forced, non-forcing catering to letting responder with 4s+6/7 clubs play a club partial, while others use 3c as a forcing ask by opener looking for 3nt as they might have some 2461 moose or similar just needing a club stop to make 3nt a good gamble).
That said, the robot has in the past bid quite poorly on reverse auctions and done weird things like bid 2nt holding 5 spades and weak hand *not* holding 4H (should bid 2S in most structures), or rebidding 2S when holding heart support (should raise 3h, or go through 2nt with a weaker hand with support). Current version may have fixed some of these but not sure if all.
Also be aware that there are many possible sensible structures over reverses, if playing with a human be aware that what's standard-ish in some regions will vary considerably vs others, so accidents are not uncommon here in newish partnerships.
#10
Posted 2019-April-03, 18:32
The little blurb you can read when you put your cursor over the bid said it was an Artificial 2NT showing a weak hand. I was afraid that if I bid higher, the Crazy Robot would take me into even MORE troublesome territory -- with a weak hand -- so I stopped at the two level. I was sure the 2NT denied the presence of a heart fit, it never occurred to me that it was anything else.
Thank you for your suggestion of reading the primer on reverse bidding -- will definitely take a look at it.
So appreciate getting an explanation! Again, many thanks.
#11
Posted 2019-April-06, 14:40
I cannot conceivably imagine a human partner (or even a Robot worth its salt) with a hand like North's, to understand my Double of opponents' four spades as anything but a Penalty Double. I practically had a heart attack when my Robot partner popped up with 5♥! The thought of playing this hand plunged me into deep despair and the result -- down five, doubled -- I could barely focus though I know the strong never give up the fight -- was another horrible blow to my confidence.
What did I do wrong? I cannot believe how counter-intuitive some of these GIB bids are. Definitely not your mother's Bridge. Am willing to learn but would welcome some help!
#12
Posted 2019-April-06, 15:57
If you have made a takeout double at any point in the auction later doubles are NEVER, EVER EVER penalty to GIB.
#13
Posted 2019-April-06, 16:33
TylerE, on 2019-April-06, 15:57, said:
If you have made a takeout double at any point in the auction later doubles are NEVER, EVER EVER penalty to GIB.
Huh. No penalty doubles after doubling earlier in the auction. Got it. Whole new world out there for me. Thank you so much for the quick response. Will never do THAT again!
#14
Posted 2019-April-07, 17:44
Yesterday I did not do well in a game where my robot partner and I bid 4♠. The opening lead from West was a heart. Today, when I looked at the "movie" for someone else who also bid four ♠ but achieved a better result than I did, I found that the opening lead by West for that person was a spade.
I thought we were all playing on a level playing field here. Needless to say, a difference in an opening lead can make a big difference between a good and bad result. Hoping someone can explain.
#15
Posted 2019-April-07, 17:53
(Unless you're playing in the main bridge club, in which case there can be a difference if one table has rented an advanced robot and one hasn't, or a table is playing with two humans where GIB can interpret bids differently).
My guess is that the auctions weren't identical, which leads to GIB simulating different hands and getting a different result.
#16
Posted 2019-April-07, 21:52
It seems that GIB isn't confident enough to bid an 8 card ♥ suit either on the first or second round. This is even though after my overcall and subsequent bidding their hand becomes HUGE. Guess that GIB would need a 10 card suit to decide that it might be a good trump suit; of course we missed a cold grand. In all seriousness, perhaps the code might need a bit of tweeking as to when to bid. As you can see opening a little light on HCP's but with shape doesn't seem to be a problem.
Regards T
#17
Posted 2019-April-07, 22:11
debstander, on 2019-April-06, 14:40, said:
I cannot conceivably imagine a human partner (or even a Robot worth its salt) with a hand like North's, to understand my Double of opponents' four spades as anything but a Penalty Double. I practically had a heart attack when my Robot partner popped up with 5♥! The thought of playing this hand plunged me into deep despair and the result -- down five, doubled -- I could barely focus though I know the strong never give up the fight -- was another horrible blow to my confidence.
What did I do wrong? I cannot believe how counter-intuitive some of these GIB bids are. Definitely not your mother's Bridge. Am willing to learn but would welcome some help!
Actually the first error was raising your partner's 2 ♥ minimum freebid answer to your takeout double. In Standard bidding all raises below game are invitational, here that would show 18-19 support points and at least 4 card support. Your 3 hearts was a considerable overbid.
#18
Posted 2019-April-07, 22:31
BillPatch, on 2019-April-07, 22:11, said:
I'm not sure that applies in competition. 3H looks fine with the South hand, although I'd be interested to see the automated description of the bid.
#19
Posted 2019-April-08, 16:13
smerriman, on 2019-April-07, 17:53, said:
(Unless you're playing in the main bridge club, in which case there can be a difference if one table has rented an advanced robot and one hasn't, or a table is playing with two humans where GIB can interpret bids differently).
My guess is that the auctions weren't identical, which leads to GIB simulating different hands and getting a different result.
Many thanks. It was an ACBL Daylong Tournament. And yes, the auction was slightly different. There was a jump bid in ♥ made in the auction that got a better result on the hand. I don't think it was a standard bid because I remember wondering why they'd jumped to the 2 level instead of bidding 1♥ up the ladder, as I'd done in my auction. That was the only difference -- everything else in the auction on the way to arriving at the game of 4♠ was the same.
Very much appreciate the patience and kind response.
#20
Posted 2019-April-14, 16:43
TheoKole, on 2019-April-07, 21:52, said:
It seems that GIB isn't confident enough to bid an 8 card ♥ suit either on the first or second round. This is even though after my overcall and subsequent bidding their hand becomes HUGE. Guess that GIB would need a 10 card suit to decide that it might be a good trump suit; of course we missed a cold grand. In all seriousness, perhaps the code might need a bit of tweeking as to when to bid. As you can see opening a little light on HCP's but with shape doesn't seem to be a problem.
Regards T
Absolutely, Theo. Complete craziness. No human partner would have ignored those hearts to support a contract in Diamonds.