[bravejason]

Using Standard American principles.

Given a bidding sequence such as
1S - 2D
2N

Or

1H - 2C
2N

What does opener’s 2 no trump re-bid mean? I’ve always understood it to show a minimum balanced hand, but I have seen some comments that it is actually a strong bid.

If it is strong, how does opener bid holding a minimum hand with 5332 distribution and where the 5 card suit is a major and opener has 2 card support for responder’s suit?

Should opener ever support responder with three card support instead of re-bidding 2NT? If so, when?

[pescetom]

 bravejason, on 2018-October-24, 08:48, said:

Given a bidding sequence such as
1S - 2D
2N

Or

1H - 2C
2N

What does opener’s 2 no trump re-bid mean? I’ve always understood it to show a minimum balanced hand, but I have seen some comments that it is actually a strong bid.

If it is strong, how does opener bid holding a minimum hand with 5332 distribution and where the 5 card suit is a major and opener has 2 card support for responder’s suit?

Should opener ever support responder with three card support instead of re-bidding 2NT? If so, when?

I'm not sure Standard American really has principles, except maybe never to throw anything away
But from what I recall of SAYC, a 2/1 response just shows 10+ HCP and 4+card in suit, so opener's 2NT rebid is a minimum balanced 13-15. With the same strength opener could support responder with good three card support - with an unbalanced hand but second suit too poor to bid or unable to bid without reverse, for instance.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

the question is, what is the meaning of 2C / 2D?
Did the bid promise another bid, or is it just a one round force?
If it is only a one round force, a bid showing min. values can be passed, otherwise it cannt,
if it cannt, you can overload the min value showing bid with really strong variants.

My take on Standard American (I am not using the Acronym SAYC) is that 2C / 2D are onlyone round
forces, hence 2NT would only show 12-14, and can be passed.

In a 2/1 context, 2NT can never be the end contract, i.e. you can play that 2NT is either min. bal.
12-14 or strong bal.
In the SAYC booklet: In the given seq. 2NT can also not the end contract, but do you play with someone,
who read reads / knowes the SAYC booklet in a similar depth than you? Your answering guess to this
question is as good as mine.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

Most modern textbooks say that 2NT shows extra values, like in SEF where it is explicitly 15-17. With weaker hands you rebid your suit.

In SAYC it is not clear what 2NT means but since it is forcing it probably shows extras.

Very old books (Goren and older) would define it as a minimum. This goes back to the time when SA was a 4-card major system.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with playing it as a minimum if you play 2/1 GF, and I seem to recall that Max Hardy plays it that way.

Probably many people on BBO play 2NT as minimum and non-forcing. They may have picked it up from Goren, Dutch Acol, Norwegian Standard or similar. Or maybe just because it feels "natural" that the cheapest notrump bid shows a balanced minimum.

[pescetom]

 P_Marlowe, on 2018-October-24, 11:35, said:

the question is, what is the meaning of 2C / 2D?
Did the bid promise another bid, or is it just a one round force?
If it is only a one round force, a bid showing min. values can be passed, otherwise it cannt,
if it cannt, you can overload the min value showing bid with really strong variants.

My take on Standard American (I am not using the Acronym SAYC) is that 2C / 2D are onlyone round
forces, hence 2NT would only show 12-14, and can be passed.

In a 2/1 context, 2NT can never be the end contract, i.e. you can play that 2NT is either min. bal.
12-14 or strong bal.
In the SAYC booklet: In the given seq. 2NT can also not the end contract, but do you play with someone,
who read reads / knowes the SAYC booklet in a similar depth than you? Your answering guess to this
question is as good as mine.

I'm no expert on SA, and quite honestly would suggest studying 2/1 instead.
But my understanding of the SAYC version (which used to be the thing on BBO) is that a 2/1 bid by responder promises another bid, and a 2NT rebid by opener is minimum balanced (in those days, 13-15).

[miamijd]

If you play something like SAYC, consider switching to a 2/1 structure after 1M opening bids. It's far better (it's actually also simpler). I would say that nowadays, "Standard American" is 2/1 GF after a 1M opener (there are a lot of ways to play 1D-2C, which is a problem auction in natural bidding systems). Certainly "Standard Expert" is 2/1.

In a 2/1 structure, 2NT shows 12-14 or 18+. You can use it with a minimum hand as descriptive bid. You can also use it with 18+, since partner is forced to bid again. If partner bids the expected 3NT, you can bid 4NT to show 18-19, or drive to slam with 20+. If partner does something else, there are a variety of ways to show the stronger hand later on. A jump to 3NT shows 15-17 balanced (the sort of hand where you might have opened 1NT, but chose not to).

The real question re 2NT is whether it shows stoppers in the unbids (I think it should show at least semi-stoppers) and how balanced it needs to be (I think semi-balanced is fine).

The answer to the first question (stoppers) depends on whether rebidding your major shows 6.

Take this hand:

AQxxx Axx xxx Kx

You open 1S; partner bids 2C. Now what? Some players play that 2s shows (or at least strongly implies) six spades. They would bid 2NT with this hand. But looking at your diamonds, do you really want to do that? Partner might not have a stop, and even if he does, do you want a diamond lead through partner's honor(s)?

Other players play that 2NT shows a stop or semi-stop in each unbid (at least Qx or Jxx) and bid 2S if they can't do anything else. I am strongly in this camp and would rebid 2S on this hand.

The answer to the second question (shape) depends on whether you treat a rebid on the 3-level as showing extras. I strongly believe it should show extra strength.

Look at this hand:

AKxxx KJ xx KTxx

You open 1S; partner bids 2D. There are three possible rebids: 2S, 2NT, and 3C. Some players would bid 3C here; in their system, that doesn't show extras. I don't like this treatment, because it makes it difficult to sort out really good hands from minimum ones. I think this is a fine 2NT bid.

I would also bid 2NT with:

AKxxx KJx x KTxx

If partner continues with 3D (slammish, because otherwise you just bid 3NT), I can discourage him with a 3NT bid.

Hope that helped.

Cheers,
Mike

[miamijd]

If you play something like SAYC, consider switching to a 2/1 structure after 1M opening bids. It's far better (it's actually also simpler). I would say that nowadays, "Standard American" is 2/1 GF after a 1M opener (there are a lot of ways to play 1D-2C, which is a problem auction in natural bidding systems). Certainly "Standard Expert" is 2/1.

In a 2/1 structure, 2NT shows 12-14 or 18+. You can use it with a minimum hand as descriptive bid. You can also use it with 18+, since partner is forced to bid again. If partner bids the expected 3NT, you can bid 4NT to show 18-19, or drive to slam with 20+. If partner does something else, there are a variety of ways to show the stronger hand later on. A jump to 3NT shows 15-17 balanced (the sort of hand where you might have opened 1NT, but chose not to).

The real question re 2NT is whether it shows stoppers in the unbids (I think it should show at least semi-stoppers) and how balanced it needs to be (I think semi-balanced is fine).

The answer to the first question (stoppers) depends on whether rebidding your major shows 6.

Take this hand:

AQxxx Axx xxx Kx

You open 1S; partner bids 2C. Now what? Some players play that 2s shows (or at least strongly implies) six spades. They would bid 2NT with this hand. But looking at your diamonds, do you really want to do that? Partner might not have a stop, and even if he does, do you want a diamond lead through partner's honor(s)?

Other players play that 2NT shows a stop or semi-stop in each unbid (at least Qx or Jxx) and bid 2S if they can't do anything else. I am strongly in this camp and would rebid 2S on this hand.

The answer to the second question (shape) depends on whether you treat a rebid on the 3-level as showing extras. I strongly believe it should show extra strength.

Look at this hand:

AKxxx KJ xx KTxx

You open 1S; partner bids 2D. There are three possible rebids: 2S, 2NT, and 3C. Some players would bid 3C here; in their system, that doesn't show extras. I don't like this treatment, because it makes it difficult to sort out really good hands from minimum ones. I think this is a fine 2NT bid.

I would also bid 2NT with:

AKxxx KJx x KTxx

If partner continues with 3D (slammish, because otherwise you just bid 3NT), I can discourage him with a 3NT bid.

Hope that helped.

Cheers,
Mike