[thepossum]

Dear all

This doesn't happen much but I was playing an IMP instant tournament and this hand surprised me. Many very good players end up in 4H on this hand. I did consider doubling myself but didn't feel confident pushing the auction any further. Any analysis would be appreciated. Should I have doubled and gone down like some better players or used my instincts and defended 3D. I tend to be pragmatic rather than theoretical so am happy with the result rather than thinking I was lucky for not playing the way many others do.


Curious on any tips on the considerations. I certainly couldn't give you a decision process.

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regards P

[awm]

While I don't know if the better players are even better players (nor how their auction went) there are a few comments I can make about this hand:

1. GIB's bidding makes no sense. It seems like East opened a club, West raised clubs with five-card support, and now they are playing in... diamonds? 3♦ should be a control-showing bid and absolutely forcing. A reasonable bridge auction from GIB would lead to a 3♣ contract, which should make easily. Compared to this result, going one down in a heart contract is not so bad of a score.
2. By passing at second turn here, your side is completely out of the auction. If partner had a very slightly different hand (say five hearts instead of four, or the diamond ace instead of the diamond king) then 4♥ is excellent and you will never reach it. Even opposite the actual North hand you would make 4♥ if the major suits were breaking (which they're not, but you didn't know this when you passed over 2NT).
3. At IMPs it generally pays to bid close games when vulnerable.
4. People are especially aggressive in "best hand" type formats because you know partner has something here. Without the "best hand" information partner could have absolutely nothing for you.

[Tramticket]

The 1♠ over-call looks normal - a take-out double with 6-4 in the majors is wrong and risks playing in a 4-3 heart Moysian-fit rather than a 6-3 spade fit when partner is 3-3 in the majors.

Since opps and partner are all machines, they will always bid the same way? (I never play with Bots). But the 2NT bid is inconsistent with the alerts and I find the 3♦ bid to be very strange. The pass of a forcing(?) 3♦ would seem to be acting on the facial expressions of its partner or other unauthorised information! (Did I mention that I never play with Bots?).

You could protect with double or 3♥, once the bidding has come to an end in 3♦, but (1) it is usually wrong to be over-aggressive in competing for a part-score at IMPs and (2) who knows what is going on?

A forcing defence may have led to declarer going off more than one trick - but difficult to diagnose on this bidding.

[The_Badger]

 thepossum, on 2018-October-16, 00:59, said:

This doesn't happen much but I was playing an IMP instant tournament and this hand surprised me. Many very good players end up in 4H on this hand.

The vulnerable 18 point game with poor intermediates and just a 4-4 fit is where genuine many very good players NEVER end up. Trust me.

Overbidding is overbidding the world over...

[Cyberyeti]

 The_Badger, on 2018-October-16, 08:08, said:

The vulnerable 18 point game with poor intermediates and just a 4-4 fit is where genuine many very good players NEVER end up. Trust me.

Overbidding is overbidding the world over...

It at least has play (3-2 and 3-3 breaks required) better than some I've been in

[thepossum]

 The_Badger, on 2018-October-16, 08:08, said:

The vulnerable 18 point game with poor intermediates and just a 4-4 fit is where genuine many very good players NEVER end up. Trust me.

Overbidding is overbidding the world over...

I have learned that the ratings players give themselves on BBO are worthless. Hard to believe there are that many Advanced, Expert and World Class players in the world, let alone on one web site




PS I recently decided to call myself Intermediate for a while I don't think bidding game when partner hasn't shown any values or support on that ordinary hand is a basic error. But I'm not an expert

Also, as far as I know bridge is about bidding a system your partner understands 3H at round two promises 18-19 total points. So players playing that were about 4 points short for 3H

[dsLawsd]

Bots do not teach good bridge habits.
With a live partner I might double 3 diamonds and the bot might pass or bid hearts. The opponent bots might run back to clubs.

I find so often the bots interpret a double as showing extra values and punish you for trying. So much for learning bridge, eh?

I try not to play too many tournaments here as it tends to erode the quality of my bidding!

I think some players bid wild trying anything to win because it seems normal play would win a live match , but here you need a crazy score to win.

[The_Badger]

 thepossum, on 2018-October-16, 20:41, said:

I don't think bidding game when partner hasn't shown any values or support on that ordinary hand is a basic error. But I'm not an expert

The 1♠ over-call looks normal - a take-out double with 6-4 in the majors is wrong and risks playing in a 4-3 heart Moysian-fit rather than a 6-3 spade fit when partner is 3-3 in the majors.

I expect many players felt that with both majors X was a better call opposite a passed partner, and as Tramticket has explained, 1♠ is the routine call. Moreover give partner just Kxxx in ♠s and a 4♠ contract is only a finesse away, with a reasonable likelihood that finesse will win over the opening bidder.

4♠s on 15 high card points! But that's the rub: distribution is king. But you will never discover your best fit if you don't bid your suits. To suppress a six card suit headed by an ace at the one level is just bad bridge, even playing with robots. There are some players who think along the lines that if partner responds in ♦s to the X, I can now bid my ♠s. But that is wrong bidding-wise as it shows a stronger hand than the one given.

Even allowing for distribution points between the two hands, the combined hand count is nearer 22 than the 25 needed for a 4♥ game. Sometimes playing in a part score and logging a plus score, or defending their contract, isn't so bad.

[GrahamJson]

It seems to me that south has a clear pass over 3D. Yes, you could miss a miracle fit and be making 4H, on the other hand the E/W bidding makes no sense and strongly suggests that they are in the wrong contract, quite likely missing a making 5C contract. Playing against flesh and blood opponents I would certainly imagine that a wheel had fallen off and would only consider bidding on if I asked oppo for an explanation of their bidding and they came up with a convincing one that indicated that 3D was a sensible contract. Even then I would probably pass. I don't think that I have ever played against bots so cant comment as to whether this auction is silly or just a normal day at the robot office.

As for "many very good players".... I've been kibbing on BBO for a while now and am not sure I have seen any very good players (apart from on viewgraph) let alone "many". OK, I have probably seen a few, but only a few.

I'm just guessing here, but I have noticed that players who rate themselves as "experts" also tend to list dozens of conventions on their profile. Perhaps some bid 2C "Michaels" over 1C, showing the majors, with north then competing based on a probable 5-4 heart fit. Actually bidding 2C is not that silly, provided it doesn't guarantee 5-5 in the majors, although I still think 1S is probably the better bid.

[miamijd]

GIB tourneys are very different than regular bridge. In regular bridge, this auction wouldn't exist. In a GIB IMP tourney, there is no way in the world I would ever pass out 3D.

1. The GIBs don't bid very well (keep it simple when bidding with GIBs). For example, the 3D bid here is insane. West has an easy 3C bid, which East should pass.

2. GIB tourneys are "best hand" with HCP as the defining factor. This is VERY important to keep in mind. Since you have 12, East has no more than 12, and West should have 10-11. That means your partner has 5-6 HCP, most likely in the red suits. In real bridge, your partner might have next to nothing.

3. The way to win GIB IMP tourneys is to bid and make thin games. You'll win a lot of IMPs if you do, and you won't lose too many IMPs if you overbid and go down. The reward far outweighs the risk in most cases.

In regular bridge, this auction wouldn't exist, as 3D would be forcing. So you are forced to guess with GIB. Do you want to defend 3D and hope to beat it? Or do you want to act (X or 3H) and maybe make game in H? Partner could easily have:

x
KTxxxx
xxxx
Kx

in which case 4H will make far more often than not.

The reward is going to be far greater than the risk, which is why a lot of "better" players didn't choose to defend 3D. I would pass in a minute in "regular" bridge. But I would never pass 3D out in a GIB IMP tournament.

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
Mike

[diana_eva]

In that tournament, none of the other tables doubled for takeout with 6-4. The bidding that got most of the field to 4H was:

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One table overcalled 1S, then doubled 3D and landed in 4H.

Robot's pass over 3D is probably a bug. I gave the hand to the programmers to check whether the bidding is as intended.

[Tramticket]

 diana_eva, on 2018-October-17, 12:41, said:

In that tournament, none of the other tables doubled for takeout with 6-4. The bidding that got most of the field to 4H was:

---

One table overcalled 1S, then doubled 3D and landed in 4H.

Robot's pass over 3D is probably a bug. I gave the hand to the programmers to check whether the bidding is as intended.

I don't think much of the 3H, vulnerable, when West is still unlimited and partner has failed to muster a negative double. The lack of a negative double suggests that either North doesn't have a four-card heart suit or is too weak to respond (North is actually pretty maximum for the pass).

I guess Mike's comment highlights my lack of understanding of Robot Bridge!

[miamijd]

 Tramticket, on 2018-October-17, 13:49, said:

I don't think much of the 3H, vulnerable, when West is still unlimited and partner has failed to muster a negative double. The lack of a negative double suggests that either North doesn't have a four-card heart suit or is too weak to respond (North is actually pretty maximum for the pass).

I guess Mike's comment highlights my lack of understanding of Robot Bridge!

I don't think much of 3H vul, either, even against the bots, but if I pass 2NT, West bids 3D, and that gets passed back to me, I'm doubling for takeout against the GIBs at IMPs (maybe even at MPs, though that's close). At real bridge, I pass.

West is NOT unlimited. West has at most 12 HCP, because in robot bridge, none of the other players has more HCP than you do (could be tied at best). East likewise has at most 12 HCP. And if you look at what 3D means per GIB, it's 11+ total POINTS. That means West could have 9-10 HCP.

So your partner has at least 4 HCP and rates to have more like 5-6, including likely some H legnth (if he doesn't have spades, and the opponents have clubs and diamonds ...).

This "best hand" concept is very important in GIB tourneys. There are all kinds of inferences to be made from it, and it affects the actions you should take. For example, I would open all 11 counts in GIB tourneys.

Cheers,
Mike