[Tramticket]

The 4♥ opening bid in 4th is unusual, but suggests that West either has 10 tricks in his own hand, or is very close to it. Either way we are probably not getting rich penalising 4♥ - partner also knows this, which is why the double is take-out. I'm also guessing that West is short in spades, since he seems anxious to keep us out of the bidding.

I would bid 5♦ and wouldn't be surprised if (a) it fails to make, but turns out to be a profitable sacrifice or; (b) the opponents take the push to 5♥.

[gszes]

bidding goes p p and you look at the following collection KQxx void Jxxxx Kxxx hmmm ugly in almost every way shape or form no lead directional bid no aces ick I pass and suddenly lho pipes up with 4h??? p p and here we are again. Well shoot what to make of that preemptive 4h bid surely p has some reasonable values over there for this bidding to happen. It seems right to back in with x as we have 3 landing spots for a reasonable sacrifice with even the tiny chance we may make something of our own.

[PhilG007]

FelicityR, on 2018-May-21, 04:59, said:

The question - it seems to me - that you need to ask is why didn't partner open the bidding in 3rd position first time around? And the answer that seems logical to be is that he has a shapely hand with mediocre suits, maybe 4045 4054 or 5044, a tad light of a genuine opening, and feared a misfit due to the void. However with the 4♥ opening by West his hand can be re-assessed.

I'd look at the double as competitive, primarily for takeout, with a very small percentage option as a penalty double if partner has a stack of trumps over opener. So it's 5♦ from me too.

If it transpires that partner WAS doubling on the strength of a trump stack,then you are going to have some explaining to do in the postmortem.
By removing the double you are quite literally telling your partner "I saw your double partner,but you're a liar and I don't trust you"
It wouldn't come as a shock if the partnership dissolved soon afterwards

[Tramticket]

PhilG007, on 2018-May-21, 07:24, said:

If it transpires that partner WAS doubling on the strength of a trump stack,then you are going to have some explaining to do in the postmortem.
By removing the double you are quite literally telling your partner "I saw your double partner,but you're a liar and I don't trust you"
It wouldn't come as a shock if the partnership dissolved soon afterwards

A few questions come to mind:
- What sort of hand do you expect West to hold? How many hearts? What suit quality for the hearts? Please bear in mind that West could have passed-out, so West is presumably bidding in the expectation of making 4♥ and not with the intention of sacrificing.
- Add the number of hearts that you hold (two) to the number that you expect West to hold and deduct this total from 13. How much of a "trump stack" does that leave for your partner?
- If partner really does hold a stack of hearts, why didn't he/she bid before?

If you properly consider and answer these questions, it will be fairly obvious that partner can't be doubling based on a trump stack. If you then check a calendar, it will also become clear that this is now the 21st century*. Taken together, you might conclude that partner has made a take-out double. You might still choose to pass the take-out double for penalties (I wouldn't) - but don't do it in the expectation that partner has a trump stack!


[* Having established that this is the 21st century, you might choose to bid 1♦ as your opening bid - saving a lot of angst].

[TylerE]

I think it is more likely that partner has some hearts here than over, say, a 2nd seat 4[♥. Something like Qxxx isn't out of the question. Maybe even QJxx.

[gordh]

I suspect 1/6/5/1 and will bid 4s like I've got them, and Sos xx if the x shows up, trading a 20% for a bottom. I hate bridge and golf some days.wondering about vul. This will not jeopardize our partnership, sometimes (rarely) we are fallible.\

[GrahamJson]

Hmm. It seems that most here think that the double shows something like a 4045 hand with insufficient values to open. It seems to me that to double on such a hand, risking playing at the five level with no guarantee of a fit, is somewhat desperate. Surely it is more likely that partner holds a major-minor two suiter, something like KQxxx x x QJxxxx. If so, Bidding 5D, as many here suggest, would be a disaster. As I previously suggested, 4NT; pick a minor looks best. The worst that could happen is that you end up in a 44 club fit instead of a 54 diamond fit. And even that could be ok, with the fifth diamond providing a discard.

As for the double being for penalties, that seems most unlikely. What hand could have two or three trump tricks plus an outside trick or two yet not be worth opening? Surely no-one would double in that position simply for an extra 50 points.

[Caitlynne]

The double is certainly intended for takeout. If by some freaky miracle partner's holding has 4H beaten, partner would just call Pass and take the plus score. Partner has a shapely hand and does not want to sell out - probably a 3 suited hand with a heart void.

You cannot Pass. For several reasons (e.g., Law of Total Tricks says the opponents are protected). But most importantly, partner has asked you to take the double out to a suit and expects you to do so unless you have a heart stack behind declarer. And you don't have that. Rather, you have two suits - clubs and diamonds - so there is no reason to hesitate making the obvious bid of 4NT which, of course, is unusual asking partner to choose a minor.

This 4NT bid also has the fortuitous benefit of transferring the declaration to partner, positionally protecting any spade honor partner might hold from being led through on the opening lead.

[miamijd]

I think 5D stands out.

Partner's double is 100% takeout. Fourth seat 4H/4S openers show about 8.5 tricks but no real slam interest (too much more than this isn't good, as you'll miss slams if partner has the right hand) and often shortness in spades. Maybe 7 solid hearts and an outside trick or two. You won't get rich doubling this contract, and if partner has heart cards you have no score to protect. So if partner really does have a penalty X, he should just pass 4H out and take his profit.

So what does he have for a X that couldn't open in 3d seat? He doesn't have a spade/minor two-suiter, as a couple posters suggested, because that would be a 1S third-seat opener. So he has some three-suited hand with a heart void that he didn't feel comfortable opening. Maybe:

Kxxx
void
KJxx
QTxxx

That's about as good as I can imagine without making the hand an obvious third-seat opener. This hand has a shot at 5D (basically, the As has to be with opener's partner and clubs can't be too awful). If 5D doesn't make, it's possible the opponents can make 4H. A good two-way shot, especially at IMPs. With a stiff heart, I can't construct a hand that I would X on now that I wouldn't have opened in 3d seat.

I don't think I would bid 4NT, because it's pointless. You're going to be in a 9-fit one way or the other (a 10-fit if partner is 4054), so why not just bid 5D now.

Cheers,
mike

[MrAce]

I ♥ this bar!

[kontoleon]

First of all i really not understand the point from 4H after 3 pass!(i prefere pass out here)
2nd i don't care even if this bid was by robbot i passed from penalty, i have 2 aces, and in fact i really hate take out double after 4 level open.

If you really agree with your partener from take out double maybe 5D. But what are the change to taken the 11 tricks with out taken at least 4 defence trick?(maybe big enought) (no info from Vul anyway). in fact the only logic hand i can see was looks like
Axxxx
---
Kxxx
Kxxx if i am correct with your

J2
T8
AQT42
A964 you had 1 trick in S, 2 in H(ruff) 5 in D 2 in C(total 10) and is tought to thing wh to manage to take the 11nth.

is pass, we have ? possible A AK © and a hope from A D. i pass?(i have no idea) maybe partener want a good sac, by holding no aces... (looks like
kxxxx
---
Kxxx
QJxxx In real deal with real partener i had to know what exacly wanted to tell(penalty or take out) in radom BBO partener i pass this 100%

[Wayne_LV]

With regular partners I play x of 4 level bid is penalty, 4NT is takeout.

[helene_t]

Wayne_LV, on 2018-May-21, 18:01, said:

With regular partners I play x of 4 level bid is penalty, 4NT is takeout.

It's not practical to play 4NT as take-out when 4♠ is the most likely bid partner would make in response to a take out double.

Here you could play 4♠ as take-out, though. Partner would have opened with a 6 card suit or decent 5 cards.

[miamijd]

Wayne_LV, on 2018-May-21, 18:01, said:

With regular partners I play x of 4 level bid is penalty, 4NT is takeout.

No one ever played a X of 4H that way. How do you get to 4S?

Even with a X of 4S, penalty is impractical. Then how do you show a two-suited hand? I think almost every expert pair in the would play a X of a 4S opener as card-showing with support for the unbids. The more spades you have, the more stuff you need. Yes, partner is going to leave it more than 50% of the time, but that's only because the level is so high. 4NT then becomes a strong two-suited hand (any two suits).

You only lose when partner has a true penalty X of 4S, and even then, if he just has a spade stack, maybe his partner can reopen with a X. Otherwise, you still go plus. These hands are very uncommon. Much more common are (A) a really good hand with 1-2 spades and no 6-card suit and (B) a really good two-suiter. With (A), doubling is a huge improvement over 4NT, because partner can then pass then X (as he will want to do more often than not). Bidding 4NT and forcing a five-level contract on these hands is a good way to turn a big plus into a big minus. With (B), if you play your way, you can't distinguish the three-suiter or balanced hand (1-2s) from the 5-5 or better two-suiter. That's a big distinction, and one the 4NT bid works well for.

If you still play X of 4S as penalty and 4NT as a general takeout, consider switching to the modern method.

Cheers,
mike

[Phil]

Would definitely bid 4N and not 5D. Why can't partner be a good 4225?

Passing is not an option.

[Tramticket]

Phil, on 2018-May-21, 20:13, said:

Would definitely bid 4N and not 5D. Why can't partner be a good 4225?

Passing is not an option.

How good can your passed-hand partner be? Difficult to see him bidding with that shape.

[maartenxq]

4 Nt and see what 'p' concocted this time.

Maarten Baltussen

[TylerE]

Phil, on 2018-May-21, 20:13, said:

Would definitely bid 4N and not 5D. Why can't partner be a good 4225?

Because they didn't openin 3rd seat? Partner doesn't have a good anything.

[Coldwarvet]

Gotta say, and would tell partner this in the post-mortem, that the only thing that double can be is for penalty. Three passes - then 4H? What kind of takeout can begin at the 4S/5minor level with three passed hands, so around 20 HCP?? And if they make 4SX, he shot it, he can eat it.

[miamijd]

Phil, on 2018-May-21, 20:13, said:

Would definitely bid 4N and not 5D. Why can't partner be a good 4225?

Passing is not an option.

If partner is 4225 with enough stuff to come in after 4H, he would have opened 1C third seat. Having failed to do that, there is no way he has 2H and is strong enough to come in with a X over 4H. In fact, I can't even produce a hand with a stiff heart that I would X on now that I wouldn't have opened third seat.

Cheers,
Mike