[barmar]

This week Trump reversed Obama's EO regarding transgender access to the bathrooms of their gender identity in public schools. And since Trump took office, a number of states have reintroduced "bathroom bills", which restrict people to the bathroom of their birth gender.

When I first heard of these bills, my immediate reaction as a progressive was that they're obviously discriminatory, and reflect a fear of change by the mainstream public. But after thinking about it a bit, it seems like this is a real conundrum. While I still feel that we need to be accomodating, don't we need to respect everyone's feelings?

It comes down to the basic reason why we have separate bathrooms for men and women. Due to traditional cultural taboos, people don't feel comfortable being in such an intimate place with people of the opposite gender. IANAL (and maybe some of the lawyers here will help), but I assume if someone intentionally goes into the wrong bathroom, they could be found guilty of something like privacy violation or lewd behavior. So while "making someone uncomfortable" is not usually something prevented by law, bathrooms are considered sacred enough that we've elevated it to such a level.

Now consider the case of a transgender person using the bathroom. We presume that they'll be more comfortable in the bathroom of their gender identity, but what about the comfort of other people in that bathroom? Why should one of them take priority over the other?

It seems like the only real solution is another set of bathrooms. But it's hard to imagine this being economically feasible in most businesses, schools, etc. And is it naive to assume that trans-males and trans-females will be OK being in the same bathrooms as each other, so we need separate facilities for each of them? But maybe there are so few of them that these would just be single-person restrooms, so we don't have to worry about sharing.

The long-term solution is probably to try to change the culture. Only a few decades ago, many white people felt the same way about sharing facilities with black people, and that justified separate facilities (or, frequently, businesses with only whites-only restrooms). Now, it's not considered an issue except by avowed racists. Could unisex bathrooms be in our future? IIRC, the law firm on the TV show "Ally McBeal" had a unisex bathroom, but it didn't catch on with the general public.

[ldrews]

barmar, on 2017-February-26, 22:16, said:

This week Trump reversed Obama's EO regarding transgender access to the bathrooms of their gender identity in public schools. And since Trump took office, a number of states have reintroduced "bathroom bills", which restrict people to the bathroom of their birth gender.

When I first heard of these bills, my immediate reaction as a progressive was that they're obviously discriminatory, and reflect a fear of change by the mainstream public. But after thinking about it a bit, it seems like this is a real conundrum. While I still feel that we need to be accomodating, don't we need to respect everyone's feelings?

It comes down to the basic reason why we have separate bathrooms for men and women. Due to traditional cultural taboos, people don't feel comfortable being in such an intimate place with people of the opposite gender. IANAL (and maybe some of the lawyers here will help), but I assume if someone intentionally goes into the wrong bathroom, they could be found guilty of something like privacy violation or lewd behavior. So while "making someone uncomfortable" is not usually something prevented by law, bathrooms are considered sacred enough that we've elevated it to such a level.

Now consider the case of a transgender person using the bathroom. We presume that they'll be more comfortable in the bathroom of their gender identity, but what about the comfort of other people in that bathroom? Why should one of them take priority over the other?

It seems like the only real solution is another set of bathrooms. But it's hard to imagine this being economically feasible in most businesses, schools, etc. And is it naive to assume that trans-males and trans-females will be OK being in the same bathrooms as each other, so we need separate facilities for each of them? But maybe there are so few of them that these would just be single-person restrooms, so we don't have to worry about sharing.

The long-term solution is probably to try to change the culture. Only a few decades ago, many white people felt the same way about sharing facilities with black people, and that justified separate facilities (or, frequently, businesses with only whites-only restrooms). Now, it's not considered an issue except by avowed racists. Could unisex bathrooms be in our future? IIRC, the law firm on the TV show "Ally McBeal" had a unisex bathroom, but it didn't catch on with the general public.

Apparently one of the fears is that a transgender who has taken on a female identity and is using the female bathroom would temporarily revert to a male identity, run amok and molest a young girl in that same bathroom. In other words, some people don't buy the idea that a real gender switch has occurred. Once a male, always a male. That is the fear.

Good question but I have no answers or suggestions.

[barmar]

ldrews, on 2017-February-26, 22:27, said:

Apparently one of the fears is that a transgender who has taken on a female identity and is using the female bathroom would temporarily revert to a male identity, run amok and molest a young girl in that same bathroom. In other words, some people don't buy the idea that a real gender switch has occurred. Once a male, always a male. That is the fear.

Good question but I have no answers or suggestions.

That's essentially the fear of the unknown and change I referred to. Most people don't understand transgender people, so they have irrational fears like this.

It's not like we have lots of regular men running amok in women's rooms. Why be more concerned about men who identify as women?

[helene_t]

Amazing that this is an issue anyone can be worked up over. USA must be an extremely happy, peaceful and boring place if this is something even the president has time to discuss.

Going into the wrong bathroom is possibly rude but obviously not a criminal offense. Sometimes people do it because the right WC is occupied or too dirty. A transsexual person on HRT (or maybe even post-SRS?) would be expected to chose according to the chosen gender but a transvestite probably not and who knows about genderbenders but then again, who cares. I can't imagine someone would ever ask me "excuse me are you a TS or just a TG?" on the basis of this issue. And I have travelled all over the World long time before surgery. Including North Carolina. Nobody has ever made an issue of it.

[gordontd]

barmar, on 2017-February-26, 22:16, said:

Now consider the case of a transgender person using the bathroom. We presume that they'll be more comfortable in the bathroom of their gender identity, but what about the comfort of other people in that bathroom? Why should one of them take priority over the other?

The apparently unforeseen consequence of these "bathroom bills" is that they require some men, those who began life as women, to use the women's toilets. I wonder how comfortable that's going to make everyone feel?

[Trinidad]

I understand why there is a problem here in American culture: Bathrooms are not only used for what they are meant for. They also serve as gender segregated meeting rooms.

After all, would it really be a problem if a man would wash his hands next to a woman washing hers? Would it be a problem if a man is doing his private business in a private, closed stall next to a woman who is doing her private business in a private, closed stall?

So, the fundamental problem is the fact that women (mostly) want their segregated meeting room where they can powder their noses together with other women, and gossip nicely, all out of the sight of men. The fact that this desire for women to be segregated is blatant sexism is lost on most people.

If this sexism would stop, there wouldn't be a reason to decide which bathroom transgenders (or anybody else with a gender issue) would use: There would only be one bathroom.

Rik (m/f, but actually m / f )

[gordontd]

Trinidad, on 2017-February-27, 05:19, said:

I understand why there is a problem here in American culture: Bathrooms are not only used for what they are meant for. They also serve as gender segregated meeting rooms.

After all, would it really be a problem if a man would wash his hands next to a woman washing hers? Would it be a problem if a man is doing his private business in a private, closed stall next to a woman who is doing her private business in a private, closed stall?

So, the fundamental problem is the fact that women (mostly) want their segregated meeting room where they can powder their noses together with other women, and gossip nicely, all out of the sight of men. The fact that this desire for women to be segregated is blatant sexism is lost on most people.

If this sexism would stop, there wouldn't be a reason to decide which bathroom transgenders (or anybody else with a gender issue) would use: There would only be one bathroom.

Rik (m/f, but actually m / f )

We ran a couple of events in a hotel in Manchester that had shared toilets. One of our older female members seemed quite shocked by this, but it's very slowly becoming less uncommon. I suppose one practical reason for having some separation is that urinals allow a much greater number of users in the space provided, though of course they could be combined with shared stalls.

[helene_t]

Trinidad, on 2017-February-27, 05:19, said:

I understand why there is a problem here in American culture: Bathrooms are not only used for what they are meant for. They also serve as gender segregated meeting rooms.
[.....]
If this sexism would stop, there wouldn't be a reason to decide which bathroom transgenders

I don't think this is an American issue. Bathrooms serve the same purpose in many other countries.

Anyway, it is a lot to ask for to change the culture of bathroom visitors. And I don't think it would resolve this non-issue either. How often does it happen that someone with a non-obvious sex/gender/whatever enters a bathroom and thereby makes other bathrooms visitors more uncomfortable than he/she would have made bathroom visitors at the opposite bathroom?

What has to change is the political culture: politicians need to start discussing real issues instead.

[kenberg]

barmar reflects my thoughts. My direct knowledge of transgender is very slight, and honestly I have not been following this closely. I have aways thought that the prospect of a guy claiming to be really a girl so that he will be allowed to go into the girl"s bathroom to watch them pee is pretty absurd. But the issue of "everyone's comfort" is real, I think. So, if I am going to think about this, I need to stretch it a bit.

I think it is not just bathrooms, it is also locker rooms and showers in locker rooms. Let's take a fifteen year old girl, one with female genitalia, who, in a phrase form earlier times, has been "properly brought up". I can well imagine this girl being uncomfortable standing without her clothes on near a fifteen year old girl with male genitalia. Maybe this is not what is on the table, I have not been following it all that closely. But even in bathrooms, I can imagine discomfort.

I think progress could be made if everyone would take a deep breath and acknowledge, as Barry says, that we want to make everyone feel comfortable. Or as comfortable as possible. I imagine that a female with male genitalia, or a male with female genitalia, will encounter some uncomfortable situations in life. I'm fine with trying to help, we should do what we can. But here, as is so often the case these days, everyone takes up (figuratively) arms. The position becomes: "A person who realizes his/her gender is different from his/her genetal endowment has an absolute right to the bathroom of his/her choice and anyone who suggests that there could be any problem whatsoever with this is a gender phobic bigoted lowlife, and no doubt watches Fox News".

Mostly I think this is about the needs of adolescents in schools and the concerns of their parents. And maybe it is mostly about the concerns of the parents when it actually comes down to it. As to adults, there was a case a while back at a ballpark where, between innings a woman needed to use the restroom, saw the long line for the women's room, and used the men's room. She got arrested, I am not sure just what the charge was. As I recall, the general reaction of the men who were interviewed was that they understood her problem and did not see it as all that much of a big deal. She was not transgender, she just really needed to pee. So she did.

As mentioned, I really have not followed this closely. It seems like it should be solvable.

PS In the early 1950s I swam at the YMCA. No swimming suits were needed or even allowed. I actually do not recommend diving without a suit on. This has nothing to do with modesty.

[Trinidad]

helene_t, on 2017-February-27, 05:29, said:

I don't think this is an American issue. Bathrooms serve the same purpose in many other countries.

Anyway, it is a lot to ask for to change the culture of bathroom visitors. And I don't think it would resolve this non-issue either. How often does it happen that someone with a non-obvious sex/gender/whatever enters a bathroom and thereby makes other bathrooms visitors more uncomfortable than he/she would have made bathroom visitors at the opposite bathroom?

What has to change is the political culture: politicians need to start discussing real issues instead.

If there are no segregated bathrooms you cannot walk into the wrong one, regardless of your sex/gender/whatever. (I think "S/G/W" could be a good term, indicating the indifference towards other people's S/G/W.)

I would see it as good thing if there would be no sign "MEN" or "WOMEN" on the doors, but simply one that says "PEOPLE" (to prevent Martians and chimpanzees from scaring the heck out of innocent citizens). Then I wouldn't go to "the men's room", but simply to the "people's room" (or shortened: the "'P' room". )

Rik

[Trinidad]

kenberg, on 2017-February-27, 07:20, said:

As mentioned, I really have not followed this closely. It seems like it should be solvable.

I fully agree. Let's not make a big deal out of nothing.

Of course, some problems are real (e.g. the problem that you are sketching of the TS/TG/TW teenager having to shower somewhere in common showers). But at the practical level, these problems don't require non-linear algebra to find a solution, as long as everybody is willing to co-operate towards one.

Rik

[helene_t]

kenberg, on 2017-February-27, 07:20, said:

I can well imagine this girl being uncomfortable standing without her clothes on near a fifteen year old girl with male genitalia.

How would she know? Are we talking exclusively of shared showers? Usually you don't get to see the genitials of your fellow bathroom visitors. Where would they send a penile cancer survivor who had his penis amputated?

Suppose the criterion is indeed "bathroom for people with (fe)male genitials". So the rule would be enforced by inspecting people's genitials. Or is it about gender designation at birth? So everyone with a mildly ambiguous gender identity who wishes to enter a public bathroom would have to go through the same birth certificate nonsense as Obama did?

Or is it a bit vague what "biological sex" even means, so that everybody in question would have to go through the same humiliation as Caster Semenya did?

The GF of my former boss is about 180 cm tall which someone apparently found suspicious when she entered the women's badminton World championship. So she had to provide a blood sample for chromosome testing. Is that the idea? Waiting a day for the lab results before getting access to the WC? I am afraid a lot of people won't be able to keep tight for so long.

[kenberg]

helene_t, on 2017-February-27, 08:20, said:

How would she know? Are we talking exclusively of shared showers? Usually you don't get to see the genitials of your fellow bathroom visitors. Where would they send a penile cancer survivor who had his penis amputated?

Suppose the criterion is indeed "bathroom for people with (fe)male genitals". So the rule would be enforced by inspecting people's genitials. Or is it about gender designation at birth? So everyone with a mildly ambiguous gender identity who wishes to enter a public bathroom would have to go through the same birth certificate nonsense as Obama did?

Or is it a bit vague what "biological sex" even means, so that everybody in question would have to go through the same humiliation as Caster Semenya did?

The GF of my former boss is about 180 cm tall which someone apparently found suspicious when she entered the women's badminton World championship. So she had to provide a blood sample for chromosome testing. Is that the idea? Waiting a day for the lab results before getting access to the WC? I am afraid a lot of people won't be able to keep tight for so long.

As to the first, that's why I stretched it out to locker rooms and showers. Now I don't have direct experience with women's showers but with men's showers a person would have no difficulty in noting that someone in the shower had female genitalia. It's true that this is evolving. At the Y where I go there are individual shower stalls with curtains and, at least in theory, a person could manage a shower without ever being seen nude. And so this could be how the problem is dealt with. That level of privacy in a Y shower seems almost weird to me. I suppose in the not too distant future it will be set up so that a person can easily undress, shower, dress and leave all in privacy. And maybe it will become the expectation. For someone who grew up in the 40s and 50s, this is odd. Just odd. But I can cope, of course.

It is my understanding that more than a few women are uncomfortable being unclothed around other women, and the analogous case holds for some, I think fewer, men. The solution to this problem might will be the somewhat prudish one of greater locker room privacy for everyone, but I can see how it might go.

I guess I grew up in an age of innocence. When I was 15 or so I was changing clothes at they Y and this guy, maybe 30 or so, heard that I was interested in mathematics and so he started describing a math problem. There we were, a 30 year old guy and a 15 year old kid, both nude, talking about mathematics. Nothing seemed strange about this at the time, and really it still doesn't. If the guy had been a nude woman, or a man with female genitalia, it would have seemed strange. And no, the strange part would not have been that a woman was interested in mathematics.

I have no well thought out position on this, but surely it is solvable.

[Vampyr]

helene_t, on 2017-February-27, 08:20, said:

How would she know? Are we talking exclusively of shared showers? Usually you don't get to see the genitials of your fellow bathroom visitors. Where would they send a penile cancer survivor who had his penis amputated?

He did say locker rooms, where everyone gets changed out in the open.

EDIT: Crossd the post above.

[ggwhiz]

So where is the outrage on gay people ogling people of their same sex in the WC? Maybe that's next as per a certain Congressman (Senator?) caught soliciting a cop a few years ago.

I find it amusing that it is such a big deal but also disheartening that so many simply refuse to let go of these racism, sexism etc. attitudes for generations, if ever. It's another battle that my great grandkids will still be fighting. As opposed to (at least) doubling the available options it would make more sense for society in general to grow up.

[Phil]

I hate country music, but I went to a Brooks and Dunn concert about 6 years ago. During intermission, the bathroom lines were very long, especially to the ladies. A few gals who needed to badly release their Coors Light jumped into the mens line. This occurred without incident but I cant think if a TG entered the same room, many of the same concertgoers would be very upset and thats unfortunate.

We already allow girls/boys in closed areas with the same/opposite sex (think a confessional or conference with a teacher), so much of this is societal norms. However, I do favor states having a say so in the matter because what is right for California may not be right for Oklahoma.

[Vampyr]

ggwhiz, on 2017-February-27, 09:38, said:

So where is the outrage on gay people ogling people of their same sex in the WC? Maybe that's next.

I find it amusing that it is such a big deal but also disheartening that so many simply refuse to let go of these racism, sexism etc. attitudes for generations. It's another battle that my great grandkids will still be fighting.

It's not just an "ism". Many people, as noted above, do not feel comfortable naked in front of people who are biologically different. And many children do not understand anything about TG. So it is not quite as simple as "letting go". I think that attitudes will change, well I hope so anyway, but I do not expect it to be instantaneous.

[barmar]

This morning on NPR's Morning Edition they interviewed the former North Carolina governor about their bathroom bill. It was mentioned that even a separate Trans room is not considered acceptable by the LGBTQ community, because it smacks of "separate but equal".

To respond myself to a question I asked in the OP, there may be a reason why liberals feel that the comfort of the trans people should take precedence. They already have a hard lot in life, trying to overcome prejudices and fit in. Almost half of transgender people attempt suicide.

BTW, the TD at the bridge club I play most frequently is a trans woman. I've known her for about 20 years (since before she transitioned), but I'm not really friendly enough with her that I'd feel comfortable asking about these issues.

[Winstonm]

Today, February 27, is the anniversary of the 1933 Reichstag fire in Berlin. This is also the day Donald Trump addresses a joint session of Congress for the first time. Let us fervently hope that history finds this moment in time to be like the word "orange".

[PassedOut]

Phil, on 2017-February-27, 09:49, said:

I hate country music, but I went to a Brooks and Dunn concert about 6 years ago. During intermission, the bathroom lines were very long, especially to the ladies. A few gals who needed to badly release their Coors Light jumped into the mens line.

I saw that too at a number of large rock concerts in Atlanta back in the 1980s. I did a double-take the first time I saw women included in the lines for the stalls while men were at the urinals, but everything was orderly at the times I was there (and no one was arrested).