[Kaitlyn S]

Phil, on 2016-October-04, 12:03, said:

I guess, but you'd be surprised how often an oddball auction like this gets discussed. As in never.

Apparently that is true. I looked in Mike Lawrence's "Complete Book on Takeout Doubles" and I don't believe he even mentions what the cuebid itself shows!

As a nonexpert, I submitted a more detailed discussion on what various follow ups mean than I have ever seen or heard, compiled from years of play. While what I have written makes sense to me, I expected it to conflict with prevailing expert opinion in some ways, and was delighted to see that people might finally discuss it so I could learn what the prevailing expert opinion was. The impression I'm getting is that there is no prevailing expert opinion. Of course, my interest is purely theoretical as Lord knows how a random partner in the BBO Main Bridge Club is going to take any of these auctions, and no doubt, will assume that I am clueless if I guess incorrectly.

[neilkaz]

Phil, on 2016-October-04, 10:30, said:

I'm also from the US and the only non-forcing auction is a rebid of responders suit.

Same here as what is responder supposed to do with the absolute rubbish he can hold here?

[mycroft]

I think by responder we mean advancer here. So 2♥ is "hey, partner, I hear ya. Don't expect even a king." Anything else is F1 at least, if I read Phil correctly.

[Phil]

Correct, I meant advancer.

[MrAce]

cherdano, on 2016-October-04, 07:55, said:

I think US standard is that 2H shows a minimum (non-forcing) and all other bids showed at least a bit of extra, F1. That may mean not finding your if both hands are minimum for their actions so far, but something has to give.

I am not sure this leads itself to a productive debate. It will be strange to players socialised in US bridge to have a new suit opposite a X-then-cue as non-forcing - new suits show extras! It will be strange to UK players not to find your best fit when you are 4234-19 hcp opposite 4522-2hcp - how silly not to be able to make natural bids!

Sorry I do not buy this. I do not think it has anything to do with where one is from.

1♦--1♠
2♦-Pass

There is a reason this auction plays their 5-1 ♦ instead of their 4-4♥ fit.

1♥----1NT
2♦--2♥
Pass There is a reason why this auction may be playing their 5-2 ♥ and not their 5-4 ♦ fit.

1♦---1♠
2♦---Pass Where they may play their 6-0 ♦ partscore instead of their 6-3 or 7-3 ♣ partscore.

There are MANY auctions, in all over the world, regardless of your country, where one can not bid naturally. The general principle is, you can not afford to make natural calls with the intention of finding best suit for part score.
Well you can but it leads to other things

• Not able to make natural calls without fear of being passed with better hands and have to jump like grasshopper all over the place just because you have couple jacks or Q extra.
• It does not even allow you to play your best partscore at proper level. When doubler does not have 4 card ♠ he will have to bid 3♥. Instead of being able to play 2♥ now you are playing 3♥ on a 4-3 fit if you change the hand Kaitlyn gave to 3334. Or you can pass 2♠ and play a 4-3 fit when 5-3 ♥ fit was available.
• If the side suit of advancer is clubs, it gets even more nasty. Good luck to any player from any nation to spare an auction that one of them doubles and then cues and then passes to new suit 3♣ and expect this to be a winning method.

There is a reason why people bid 1♠ first as advancer, over the double with 4-4 majors and a very weak hand.
We never said one should not bid 2♠ with very weak hands. (I do not but what I do is irrelevant) You can bid naturally your 4 card ♠ fit. Playing it to be passable is another story.

[wank]

you're not expecting to bid slam here. having low level bids forcing to cater to optimal game bidding on the small number of awkward shaped hands seems very unnecessary to me when you've got a cuebid and enough space to jump. of course i'm approaching this from what's evidently a narrower range for the original 1H which reduces the need for space to differentiate range (a 4531 4 count is easily in the upper half of my 1H range, so yeah I don't have any qualms about jumping around).

it doesn't look like either of us is going to be convinced.

[MrAce]

wank, on 2016-October-04, 20:28, said:

you're not expecting to bid slam here.

No I am not.
And I am not trying to convince you.
I simply just not buying the argument to make bids to find the best suit for partscore instead of finding the best game, or whether we have a game or not. By not jumping all over the place with 4432 hands and 2 jack extras. That is not just bad but it is awful imo.

[wank]

MrAce, on 2016-October-04, 21:26, said:

No I am not.
And I am not trying to convince you.
I simply just not buying the argument to make bids to find the best suit for partscore instead of finding the best game, or whether we have a game or not. By not jumping all over the place with 4432 hands and 2 jack extras. That is not just bad but it is awful imo.

well yeah i doubt i would do anything with '4432 and 2 extra jacks'. it's the 4531 shape which gets me excited. to distill the original hand down to HCP on this auction I'd rate it at 6 or more. i'm guessing you'd drive game with a 6 count opposite a cuebid too. perhaps it's more a difference of hand evaluation.

[alok c]

wank, on 2016-October-03, 16:27, said:

i'd force to game. exactly how to do that in a way which gets across my major holdings is interesting. 3s now and 4h over 3nt? seems unilateral - partner might have a GF club hand with no spade stop, but i think it's probably a risk you have to take. 3S and stand 3NT? this hand seems much better in a suit and you haven't shown the 5th heart. 3d? partner will think you're looking for 3NT. 2s? not for me - risks being passed out.

i'd just bid 2S without the QS.

Notwithstanding West's opening hand,does'nt cue bid by North indicate super acceptance of ♥ with a slam interest?What he will bid with AKXX-AKXX-X-AKXX?

[Kaitlyn S]

alok c, on 2016-October-04, 22:58, said:

Notwithstanding West's opening hand,does'nt cue bid by North indicate super acceptance of ♥ with a slam interest?What he will bid with AKXX-AKXX-X-AKXX?

I would bid 4D, splinter. Partner would know that xx, Qxxxxx, xxx, xx was awesome.

And yes, that is one of the things that the 2D bidder could have. However, there are others since double and bid a suit strongly suggests five or more cards, and double and bid notrump strongly suggests a stopper. So there are a lot of good hands without a 5-card suit, without a stopper, and without a great fit for partner. What would you do with such a hand?

[Fluffy]

Cuebid follow ups is a dark area that partnerships not talk enough about. During years I've seen so many hands where cuebidder just needed to know if he had 3, 4 or 5 cards in front, yet it was impossible.

This one was no exception, all partner needs to know on this one is that you have 4-5 majors to reach 6♥ with ♠x ♥AKxxx ♦AKx ♣AKxx. How to also know that ♠A is not there might be difficult because I doubt most players will risk bidding 3♥ over 2♠ expecting partner not to pass. Even worse if you jump to 3♠.

Side question, would anyone take 3♠ as splinter? after 1♥ or after 2♦-2♥?

[Kaitlyn S]

Fluffy, on 2016-October-04, 23:36, said:

Side question, would anyone take 3♠ as splinter? after 1♥ or after 2♦-2♥?

Yes to both.

[alok c]

Kaitlyn S, on 2016-October-04, 23:17, said:

I would bid 4D, splinter. Partner would know that xx, Qxxxxx, xxx, xx was awesome.

And yes, that is one of the things that the 2D bidder could have. However, there are others since double and bid a suit strongly suggests five or more cards, and double and bid notrump strongly suggests a stopper. So there are a lot of good hands without a 5-card suit, without a stopper, and without a great fit for partner. What would you do with such a hand?

Not necessarily when North is interested in slam after 1H by South & a proper distributive hand with South even on 2pts may lead him to a reasonable slam.2D cue is indicative of that.If South reads North's 2D cue properly then 2s-2nt-3h will show his distribution & help North reach 6H.

[aguahombre]

One reason why 2♠ after the cue shows a little something, at least for us, is because with a 4-5 Yarb we would have bid 1♠ as our original advance -- prepared, in case partner has a big hand and cues (so we can stay low).

I thought this was standard practice for experienced players, and I know it was discussed on these forums back in 2012 or so. Perhaps it isn't a good idea if partner is one of those whose double of 1d just shows 13 cards not necessarily resembling a takeout double.

[Kaitlyn S]

aguahombre, on 2016-October-08, 06:43, said:

One reason why 2♠ after the cue shows a little something, at least for us, is because with a 4-5 Yarb we would have bid 1♠ as our original advance -- prepared, in case partner has a big hand and cues (so we can stay low).

I missed the original discussion but it appears to me that a likely downside of this treatment is that you let the opponents make 3NT when if partner led a heart (your 5-4 fit) you would have beat it (and they might not have bid it, but still you didn't give up a game bonus.) I would think that opener getting to 3NT is a lot more common than your partner having a monster double.

aguahombre, on 2016-October-08, 06:43, said:

I thought this was standard practice for experienced players, and I know it was discussed on these forums back in 2012 or so. Perhaps it isn't a good idea if partner is one of those whose double of 1d just shows 13 cards not necessarily resembling a takeout double.

The nice thing about bridge is that millions of people play it, and if you have a partner who doubles with 13 cards that isn't your spouse, there are so many more wonderful partners to try! There aren't many things I call a deal breaker but routinely doubling with a random 13 point hand is one of them.

[nige1]

fluffy asks "What would you bid?, what is the minimum change in HCP to make a difference?"
I rank
1. 2♠ = NAT. INV.
2. 3♠ = NAT. FG
3. 4♥ = Probably OK.
4. 3♦ = ART but IMO, misdescriptive.
5. 4♣ = SPL. But if this is a splinter; perhaps 3♠ should be, too.

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