[ldrews]

Partner and I want to use an 11-15 hcp, balanced hand as a 1NT open. One local director says that a 5 pt range is not GCC legal. I cannot find any prohibition about that. Can someone chime in authoritatively about this?

[Stephen Tu]

You can search for "ACBL GCC" on google to get a link to the document. The prohibition is on conventions after a notrump opening that shows a GREATER than 5 pt range. So 5 pt range is OK.

It's a little ambiguous whether 11-15 is considered a 5 pt range or a 4 pt range, I think this forum has argued about this before, and ACBL doesn't have any documents with examples, but either way this would be OK. 10-15 might be barred (but I suppose could be played without conventional responses).

Now whether 11-15 is really an effective range as opposed to legal, that's a different discussion.

[steve2005]

Is allowed.
acbl GCC so you know where to go next time you have gcc question.
under disallowed
"CONVENTIONAL RESPONSES, REBIDS AND A CONVENTIONAL DEFENSE TO AN OPPONENT'S CONVENTIONAL DEFENSE after natural no trump opening bids or overcalls with a lower limit of fewer than 10 HCP or with a range of greater than 5 HCP"
so 11-15 ok but anything wider you can play but aren't allowed conventions like Stayman and transfers

[ldrews]

Stephen,

Thank you for the reply. We are playing a modified Precision Club where 1NT is 11-15 hcp, balanced hand with no more than one doubleton. This allows the 1D to be natural (4+ cards). 2C is 6+ clubs or 5 clubs + 4 card major. So all 11-15 point hands have a "natural" bid except the 2D which is the traditional 4414. Whether this is wise or not I will let you know after we have played it a while. So far it has allowed us, both < 20 ACBL masterpoints and less than 4 months learning and practicing the system, to play at the average level of a local duplicate club where players range from 0 to 1000 masterpoints.

[PrecisionL]

ldrews said:

1471568325[/url]' post='894699']
Stephen,

Thank you for the reply. We are playing a modified Precision Club where 1NT is 11-15 hcp, balanced hand with no more than one doubleton. This allows the 1D to be natural (4+ cards). 2C is 6+ clubs or 5 clubs + 4 card major. So all 11-15 point hands have a "natural" bid except the 2D which is the traditional 4414. Whether this is wise or not I will let you know after we have played it a while. So far it has allowed us, both < 20 ACBL masterpoints and less than 4 months learning and practicing the system, to play at the average level of a local duplicate club where players range from 0 to 1000 masterpoints.

We play a 12-15 NT in our Strong Club system and we can play Puppet Stayman (2♣) and transfers and 4-cd Diamond openings.

[The_Badger]

hi ldrews,

A good question as I used to play Precision (13-15NT) in the good old days (back in late 1970s/early 1980s) and I felt there was something missing from the system: bidding balanced hands with 12 HCPs without 4♦s. That's why Precision went through many modifications, I feel, evolved, as many systems do, but in my personal view, taking away some of the preciseness that made it easy to learn.

And, yes, bidding is far more aggressive than it was 35 years ago.

What worries me is the 5 point range of a 11-15NT? As Stephen Tu says: is 11-15 really an effective range?

Or, more pertinently, will you and your partner be able to cope with this large range against good opposition, or even average opposition? It's alright scaring the wits of some of the seasoned, yet less experienced, members of your local club who might shudder looking at your convention card, but the real test is in the results.

With the Fantunes system, with an 11-14 NT range (although some 4441 hands are opened too), 1NT is opened 28% of the time as an opening bid. So, I guess, with a more conventional balanced shape hand and a slightly expanded 11-15 NT range it's going to be your favourite opening bid, too.

I. personally, have never seen a 5 HCP opening bid NT range in any recognised system - though I am sure someone will correct me on that statement.

Anyway, all I can do is wish you good luck with your bridge, and hey, I loved playing Wei Precision, especially that quirky 4414 2♦ bid

[johnu]

The_Badger, on 2016-August-19, 03:15, said:

I. personally, have never seen a 5 HCP opening bid NT range in any recognised system - though I am sure someone will correct me on that statement.

Blue Team Club incorporated a 12-17 HCP 1NT bid when the system was first published. There was a whole system of responses to determine strength and shape. I don't know of any "modern" pairs who continue to use it. IMHO, it is basically unplayable as the range is too big.

[1eyedjack]

johnu, on 2016-August-19, 08:00, said:

Blue Team Club incorporated a 12-17 HCP 1NT bid when the system was first published. There was a whole system of responses to determine strength and shape. I don't know of any "modern" pairs who continue to use it. IMHO, it is basically unplayable as the range is too big.

As I recall it was a 5 point range, I thought 13-17 (my book is at home so cannot check just now). I remember because within 3 points of the range it contained all balanced hands, but at the extremity there was a 2 point range where there were significant shape restrictions.

[nullve]

The_Badger, on 2016-August-19, 03:15, said:

I. personally, have never seen a 5 HCP opening bid NT range in any recognised system - though I am sure someone will correct me on that statement.

8-12 NT in 1st/2nd seat NV is quite common in Norway, maybe especially at the top level. Here's a CC from 2012:

http://info.ecatsbri...g-svendsen.pdf.

1eyedjack, on 2016-August-19, 08:34, said:

As I recall it was a 5 point range, I thought 13-17 (my book is at home so cannot check just now). I remember because within 3 points of the range it contained all balanced hands, but at the extremity there was a 2 point range where there were significant shape restrictions.

Blue Club's 1N opening, as described in the book by Garozzo and Yallouze, showed either a) 16-17 bal. or b) 13-15 with either 3325 or 3334.

[The_Badger]

johnu, on 2016-August-19, 08:00, said:

Blue Team Club incorporated a 12-17 HCP 1NT bid when the system was first published. There was a whole system of responses to determine strength and shape. I don't know of any "modern" pairs who continue to use it. IMHO, it is basically unplayable as the range is too big.

Thanks johnu,

Old Badger here has only seen the finished version of Blue Club (Terence Reese's book) with its 14-17 range, but it's interesting that they started big then pared down the range.

Given today's modern bidding, most partnerships play a three point spread, or a four point range with a degree of flexibility given the vulnerability. Mentally upgrading and downgrading depending on the actual cards, shape, vulnerability, and bidding position.

A 5 point range may work: it all depends how its structured into the main system.

[The_Badger]

nullve, on 2016-August-19, 09:15, said:

8-12 NT in 1st/2nd seat NV is quite common in Norway, maybe especially at the top level. Here's a CC from 2012:

Thanks nullve,

I'm obviously not watching enough Vugraph when Norwegian players are on BBO. Will make a note for future reference. Thanks

[Cyberyeti]

I played 11-16 in first and second seat, 14-19 3/4 for a while until an old partner moved away, and loved it (in the UK so no licencing issues). It takes a lot of work and artificiality but it can be done (we used inv+ 4 card+ red suit transfers and a 2♣ bucket bid, with an extra lebensohl style option). I would say if you're going wider than 11-14 or 12-15 you need to use something other than standard methods in response.

[jeffford76]

As others have said, 11-15 is legal, but I wonder if you wouldn't find it easier to open with 12-15 and pass the balanced 11 counts.

[ldrews]

Thanks for all of the responses. It seems to me that having the ability to open all 11 hcp hands in a predictable manner, the pre-emptive value of opening 1N (with suitable escape bids) gives us some advantage, although I could not quantify it in any way.

Can someone give me the arguments why a 3 or 4 point range for 1N is better than 5. The tradeoffs of more precision vs less frequency? The elimination of the artificial 1D bids. etc.

We are currently using the 12-15 range pending resolution of this question. We just have to pass balanced 11 hcp hands that do not have 4+ D.

[johnu]

1eyedjack, on 2016-August-19, 08:34, said:

As I recall it was a 5 point range, I thought 13-17 (my book is at home so cannot check just now). I remember because within 3 points of the range it contained all balanced hands, but at the extremity there was a 2 point range where there were significant shape restrictions.

IIRC, in the Forquet-Garozzo Blue Team "Bible", 1NT was

5-3-3-2 hands with 5 clubs and 12 HCP points
4-3-3-3 hands with 4 clubs and 13-15 HCP points
Any balanced distribution and 16-17 HCP points

I lent my copy to a friend who lost it years ago. Another idea (from Garazzo) was that 2♦ showed 17-24 HCP and 4-4-4-1 with a whole chapter on responses and followups. The story I remember is that Forquet picked up a hand he could have opened 2♦ but opened 1♣ instead. As he was putting down dummy, he apologized for "forgetting" to open 2♦.

[awm]

The basic problem is that you don't want to play in 2NT or 3M; these contracts are never really better than 1NT or 2M, so it pays to minimize the frequency with which you play them.

With a normal three-point range (say 13-15) you only really want to invite with one point total (here 10 points) and you can accept with all but the minimum. So you get to game with all 25 hcp and some 24, and you only play in a declined invite when you have exactly 13 opposite 10.

With a five-point range (say 11-15) you cannot do so well. Assuming you don't want to play a lot of 22- and 23-point games (which usually do even worse than playing in 2NT/3M) you probably want to invite with two point totals (here 11-12) and decline the invite with two point totals. So you will play 2NT (or 3M) with 11-11, 11-12, 12-11, 12-12, and also miss a reasonable game with 15 opposite 10. This is likely to cost you quite a bit in the long run, although perhaps you can recoup some of it in other parts of the system.

[1eyedjack]

awm, on 2016-August-20, 13:40, said:

The basic problem is that you don't want to play in 2NT or 3M; these contracts are never really better than 1NT or 2M, so it pays to minimize the frequency with which you play them.

With a normal three-point range (say 13-15) you only really want to invite with one point total (here 10 points) and you can accept with all but the minimum. So you get to game with all 25 hcp and some 24, and you only play in a declined invite when you have exactly 13 opposite 10.

With a five-point range (say 11-15) you cannot do so well. Assuming you don't want to play a lot of 22- and 23-point games (which usually do even worse than playing in 2NT/3M) you probably want to invite with two point totals (here 11-12) and decline the invite with two point totals. So you will play 2NT (or 3M) with 11-11, 11-12, 12-11, 12-12, and also miss a reasonable game with 15 opposite 10. This is likely to cost you quite a bit in the long run, although perhaps you can recoup some of it in other parts of the system.

There is an element to the fact that if the hand belongs to the opponents it is not easy for them to gauge the level of their contract (or even if they are better off defending NT). Not saying that it is a deciding factor, but it is something that should be thrown into the mix.

[Stefan_O]

Stephen Tu, on 2016-August-18, 17:02, said:

Now whether 11-15 is really an effective range as opposed to legal, that's a different discussion.

Just to mention,
there is a very playable system for playing 5 pt range, https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Carrot_1NT
with the restriction that a minimum opener denies 4-card major.

In the original version (played by Swedish team in top championships in the 70'ies and 80'ies) it is 13-17 (i.e. normal 15-17 opening + 13-14 balanced with no major),
and it works well in any system that uses 15-17-NT (sayc, 2/1, acol, whatever).

When you open 1NT (instead of 1♣/1♦) on 13-14 and no major
(these are hands where you will usually start 1m-1M-1NT anyways --- saves you a bidding-round )
it has a preemptive effect and makes it harder/riskier for opps to get in, and also gives out less information to opps.

I have also played it as 12-16, where it fits into a 14-16 1NT system.

I really like this 5pt-range approach.

[lcsmw]

My partner and I played a very strong 1nt 19-21 which worked well within our bidding structure. We occasionally got a bad board by not opening 1 nt with a standard range from opponents entering the auction. Our 1nt rebid was 13-16. We could clarify the range on our next bid. I can't tell you how many times we had the director called. Always the same answer, what's the problem? People were stuck on a 3pt range. Some directors suggested that we announce the range which at the time was not necessary and incorrect. We always announced are opening nt range.

[Vampyr]

Played someone recently whose 1NT range was 11-17. I wish I'd had time to find out what the follow-ups were. And the sequences they were gaining with whatever they used a 1NT rebid for.