[foobar]

A sample auction appears below, with RHO dealing and rebidding suit over your 1N overcall (everyone else passes). What is your X over the rebid?
Do your agreements depend on vulnerability and / or whether the auction forces us to the 3-level? Does it depend on whether pard is a PH?

---

[straube]

Also...

is 1S (1N) P P 2S dbl takeout or penalty?

How about 1H (1N) P P 2H dbl?

Or 1D (1N) P P 2D dbl?

[lycier]

Always penalty, and ask partner to lead ♣.
This is a common popular artificial.

[1eyedjack]

lycier, on 2016-May-29, 01:43, said:

Always penalty, and ask partner to lead ♣ and then call the TD for lead out of turn.
This is a common popular artificial.

FYP

[P_Marlowe]

T/O, which suit got opened, does not matter.

In the end it boils down to the question, how good needs the stopper to be?
Kx is enough for me, i.e. a doubleton is not uncommon.
If you need basically always 3+ cards in their suit, than penalty will be
more frequent.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Stephen Tu]

My feeling is that in this sort of situation, where you overcall 1nt, if you want to takeout double now, you really were supposed to takeout double on the previous round. If I had Ax or Kx type of hand in their suit and support for others I would always takeout double in preference to overcalling 1nt on one stopper. If I overcalled 1nt with one stop it was because my shape is NOT suited for takeout double (doubleton in unbid major or something like that), so it would still be not suited to takeout double on the second round. So I think it should be penalties since I can't have a takeout double.

This is in contrast to where you open in NT and get overcalled, in which I like takeout, since when you opened you had no idea that an opp was going to overcall in your xx or Ax suit.

[GrahamJson]

It seems to me that a double in this position is a request to get a bad score. You have already given a pretty accurate description of your hand, leave any follow up to partner. Yes, a TOX could work, as could a penalty double, but equally both could be disasterous. Partners don't always turn up with a fit or a couple of useful defensive tricks, at least mine don't.

Look it another way. What will upset partner most; passing 2C when it goes one or two off, or making a penalty double and it making, perhaps even +1 or 2.

[msjennifer]

Flabbergasted. No TOD earlier but now a dbl after having over called 1NT earlier! Some experts may please explain this auction since it seems an indecipherable one.

[notproven]

Penalty. If I had a takeout type hand, I would have doubled 1♣. However, I would expect a double by partner to be pure takeout.

To double 2♣, I would have Ax Axx Axx KJ109x at a minimum. I'm still not sure that I would double, though, because opps might have a place to run, and I'd lose my plus score.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I wont go deeper into a discussion, but for us:

All low level doubles of suits are for T/O, when there exist at least
two unbid suits. Having a generic meta agreement is handy, and safes a
lot of stamina.

And finally: A 1NT overcall showes the shape / strength pretty well,
and over a minor suit opening it even has preemptive value, and it does
not rule out a doubleton in their suit.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: I can follow the arguments, why penalty may be better, but the frequency
of hands, that would allow me to make a penalty is not high enough to even
start considering tweaking the Meta.

[Cyberyeti]

P_Marlowe, on 2016-May-30, 08:05, said:

Hi,

I wont go deeper into a discussion, but for us:

All low level doubles of suits are for T/O, when there exist at least
two unbid suits. Having a generic meta agreement is handy, and safes a
lot of stamina.

And finally: A 1NT overcall showes the shape / strength pretty well,
and over a minor suit opening it even has preemptive value, and it does
not rule out a doubleton in their suit.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: I can follow the arguments, why penalty may be better, but the frequency
of hands, that would allow me to make a penalty is not high enough to even
start considering tweaking the Meta.

We would agree with this pretty much word for word, can you not have a 4432 17 with ♣AQ here, particularly at MPs you might want to play at the 2 level or make them bid 3♣. Your club stop might be flimsier if the club can be a weak NT.

[Stefan_O]

Voting Alternatives, on 2016-May-28, 22:22, said:

"Penalty if a new suit is bid, but takeout otherwise"

Would make more sense the other way round....

After rebid, cannot possibly be takeout, since we didnt takeout-double on the first round.

But after new suit, say:

1C - 1NT - P - P
2D - X

the Double, logically, would show a 4-4-2-3 maximum.

[nige1]

foobar, on 2016-May-28, 22:22, said:

A sample auction appears below, with RHO dealing and rebidding suit over your 1N overcall (everyone else passes). What is your X over the rebid? Doyour agreements depend on vulnerability and / or whether the auction forces us to the 3-level? Does it depend on whether pard is a PH?

---

For us double is T/O by 1N opener/overcaller and by responder. This might not be the optimum treatment, in every case; but it isn't markedly inferior to other strategies; and, for occasional partnerships, it has the considerable merit of simplicity and consistency e.g. We define all these doubles as T/O:

• 1N (2♥) Double
• 1N (2♥) Pass (Pass); Double
• (1♦) 1N (2♥) Double
• (1♣) 1N (Pass) Pass; (2♣) Double

[awm]

This falls under an agreement I have with Howard Liu (most of my other partnerships have not specifically discussed this auction) which goes as follows:

If opener bids a suit, and the partner behind opener passes, and then opener rebids the same suit without a raise from his partner and without any other suit being named, double is penalty. So the following doubles are penalty:

1X - 1NT - Pass - Pass
2X - Dbl

1X - Pass - 1NT - Pass
2X - Dbl

1X - Pass - Pass - Dbl
2X - Dbl

However the following doubles are still takeout:

1X - Pass - 1Y - Pass
2X - Dbl

1X - Pass - Pass - 1Y
2X - Dbl

1X - 1NT - Pass - Pass
2Y - Dbl

1X - Pass - 2X - Pass
Pass - Dbl