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How To Find the Grand

#1 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2015-November-13, 14:24



our Auction was a fairly unscientific one to 6s which happened to make 7 when the club was right but of course 7H is virtually cold.

As it happened we got an 80% board for being in 6 but I think we should have found 7H

How can we bid it better :) - more how can I bid it better (I was South)

spots are approx btw

Thanks

Eagles
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2015-November-13, 19:12

The problem is the premature spade agreement. Once you start 1-2 you have a problem that's not impossible to solve but is awkward.

I've advocated for a while on hands that you want to open at the 1 level and are bidding game anyway if you get a reponse with both majors that opening 1 works better than 1 but this is not mainstream. (the reason being that over 1-1N a 3 rebid is not clearly 5-5 for most people, but 1-1N-2 then 3 clearly shows 5-5 if you have this agreement)
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#3 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2015-November-13, 20:10

With 2 should be easier because if there is a positive answer, much probable, you know N has 3 Kings or A+KQ (i.e. in diamond) but here N probably bids 2NT (1,5/2 def.ve tricks) indicating a balanced hand 4432 or 4333 and between the (equal) major suits heart seems more solid. The 4 bidding seems don't work.(Lovera)
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#4 User is offline   Mbodell 

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Posted 2015-November-14, 01:36

Assuming you play natural long suit game tries then:

1-2
3-4
4nt-5(you probably should play 6kc here, but assuming you just do normal 1430 for )
5-5nt (for me 5 should show all the key cards + Q asking for K since it is the 2nd non-trump step, others might have different agreements especially with the 1 opener, but this is convenient as 5nt here can show the K)
7

If you know spade support, K of spade, heart support, A of club and accept of a game try you know that 13 is very near guaranteed.
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#5 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2015-November-14, 02:32

nonsense

the problem is pard will never ..never play you for 3 loser hand with spades agreed

posters make up crap solutions
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#6 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2015-November-14, 03:05

View PostMbodell, on 2015-November-14, 01:36, said:

Assuming you play natural long suit game tries then:

1-2
3-4
4nt-5(you probably should play 6kc here, but assuming you just do normal 1430 for )
5-5nt (for me 5 should show all the key cards + Q asking for K since it is the 2nd non-trump step, others might have different agreements especially with the 1 opener, but this is convenient as 5nt here can show the K)
7


I agree up to 4, but what do you do after RKCB if P shows 1? If you sign off, he'll have Txx xxxx xxx AKx. If you bid 6, he'll have Kxx xxxx KQx xx.
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2015-November-14, 04:16

View PostJinksy, on 2015-November-14, 03:05, said:

I agree up to 4, but what do you do after RKCB if P shows 1? If you sign off, he'll have Txx xxxx xxx AKx. If you bid 6, he'll have Kxx xxxx KQx xx.


Correct, the only way to bid the grand after 4 would be to bid something like 5-5(showing a club control as well as partner bypassed it)-5N-6(yes it's a first round control, can't be AK as AKK is not a 2response)-7

The problem with this at MPs is that if partner doesn't have a club control, you've marked the lead and may get a bottom for 5= when you were making overtricks on a diamond lead otherwise.
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#8 User is offline   dboxley 

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Posted 2015-November-14, 07:51

View Posteagles123, on 2015-November-13, 14:24, said:



our Auction was a fairly unscientific one to 6s which happened to make 7 when the club was right but of course 7H is virtually cold.

As it happened we got an 80% board for being in 6 but I think we should have found 7H

How can we bid it better :) - more how can I bid it better (I was South)

spots are approx btw

Thanks

Eagles


Why not rebid 3H? North can now bid 4C catering to anything and there is a much better chance of finding the heart fit.
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#9 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2015-November-14, 08:11

So, after 2 bidding, 2NT, 3-4, 4NT(=usual RKB 1430) we can have:1) 5(=0 keys-3 kings) for 5;2) 5(=1 key-1A+KQ) and with 5NT you can solve dilemma. Infact 6 means KQ in diamond for 6 whilest 6 tells about lacking K in spade (neither club nor diamond that is above trump). The play should be: you win, draw trump, unblocking minor(s), run spade for ruffing club.
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#10 User is offline   KurtGodel 

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Posted 2015-November-14, 12:26

1 - 2 - 3 (game try) - 4 (yes we can certainly play game) - 5 (I'm a bit worried about the clubs) - 6 (Not to worry, I have you covered) - 7 (partner kept the conversation open without a diamond control or a heart control).
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#11 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2015-November-14, 12:40

View PostKurtGodel, on 2015-November-14, 12:26, said:

1 - 2 - 3 (game try) - 4 (yes we can certainly play game) - 5 (I'm a bit worried about the clubs) - 6 (Not to worry, I have you covered) - 7 (partner kept the conversation open without a diamond control or a heart control).


What does partner do with KQJ ? just bid 6 ? and what does he do with KQJ and Q/J rather than spade K. I much prefer my sequence with 5 over 5.
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#12 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2015-November-14, 17:37

In the auction you had, assuming 5 must be the A, how about jumping to 6 ? It offers to play slam in either suit. As it turns out, with partner looking at the K and having only shown the A, it also ought to imply solid tops else you would be bidding slam with 2 potential losers -- a big no no.

Now partner with a big fit in both suits including the undisclosed K should give serious thought to bidding 7 .

However, I would second the other comments about starting with a 3 game try rather than splintering to 4 first. Your hand will be the master hand that you are trying to set up. So the better you can describe it to partner, the better chance you'll have to get to the right contract.
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#13 User is offline   KurtGodel 

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Posted 2015-November-14, 19:25

View PostCyberyeti, on 2015-November-14, 12:40, said:

What does partner do with KQJ ? just bid 6 ? and what does he do with KQJ and Q/J rather than spade K. I much prefer my sequence with 5 over 5.

You aren't interested in grand unless you have the A, so there is no need to consider tries that don't include it. How can you sign off with K and A? We basically have the second best possible hand (move the Q into hearts).
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#14 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2015-November-15, 10:15

View PostKurtGodel, on 2015-November-14, 19:25, said:

You aren't interested in grand unless you have the A, so there is no need to consider tries that don't include it. How can you sign off with K and A? We basically have the second best possible hand (move the Q into hearts).


Missing the point, partner needs to know you have the K, 6 is not good without it (although it's not terrible) but you certainly don't want to be in a grand without it. 6 over 5 would absolutely deny K in my book and would be what you would do with AKx or AKQ. 5 is a cue with hearts agreed not a signoff.
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#15 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2015-November-15, 12:01

So if you are a systems guy you will play system over this to handle slam tries. For a while I put all my game tries through 2N after 2S, and every direct bid was a two suited slam try, so we would ahve bid something like 1s-2s-3h (natural 55 or 6-4 we just splinter with 5431 usually and a slam try)-4c (cue agrees hearts, 6 keycard bw- 5h - 5N

and 5N now would mean "do you have anything extra". I'd just bid 7C now with the responder hand. Its at worst on a finesse, and very likely that you will be able to score a club ruff by discarding a club on a spade if necessary. You know from partners bidding that he has AQxxx(x) AKQx(x) A(x) (x) and so its likely to be at worst a finesse in clubs and possibly better. Depending on agreements it could be allowed to bid 5C over 5N to show either the Q or the third round control, the latter would let you find grand with Ax.

In standard methods you are probably just screwed. I mean, I can think of auctions where you might stumble into grand, but none where you could have enough confidence really.
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#16 User is offline   KurtGodel 

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Posted 2015-November-16, 05:56

View PostCyberyeti, on 2015-November-15, 10:15, said:

Missing the point, partner needs to know you have the K, 6 is not good without it (although it's not terrible) but you certainly don't want to be in a grand without it. 6 over 5 would absolutely deny K in my book and would be what you would do with AKx or AKQ. 5 is a cue with hearts agreed not a signoff.

I don't see why you must play in hearts in now. Would you really risk bidding 5 at the table? I tried to answer the OPs question using really simple agreements without having a contrived auction, it seems like most people's solutions are: 'play my system'.
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#17 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2015-November-16, 06:30

I recommend a pretty bid that does wonders here. Suppose a natrual 3H rebid. I use Responder's 3NT as a game try acceptance with four pieces in Opener's second suit. Slams make on relatively lesser values when you play in a 54 fit eith a side 53 fit.

Opener, after 3NT, can bid 4C to agree this new fit, show slam interest, and induce another descriptive call. Whatever your methods after 4C, this obviously helps.
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#18 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2015-November-16, 07:58

View PostKurtGodel, on 2015-November-16, 05:56, said:

I don't see why you must play in hearts in now. Would you really risk bidding 5 at the table? I tried to answer the OPs question using really simple agreements without having a contrived auction, it seems like most people's solutions are: 'play my system'.


Of course, hearts were conclusively agreed when 5 was bid.
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#19 User is offline   Mbodell 

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Posted 2015-November-16, 23:49

View PostJinksy, on 2015-November-14, 03:05, said:

I agree up to 4, but what do you do after RKCB if P shows 1? If you sign off, he'll have Txx xxxx xxx AKx. If you bid 6, he'll have Kxx xxxx KQx xx.


Fortunately in 1430 for hearts the first hand is 1 key card and I'll bid on (explore for 7 settle for 6), the second is 0 key cards (the spade K isn't a heart keycard) so I'll sign off. I might miss Kxx xxxx xxx KQJ.
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#20 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2015-November-17, 01:01

View PostCyberyeti, on 2015-November-15, 10:15, said:

Missing the point, partner needs to know you have the K, 6 is not good without it (although it's not terrible) but you certainly don't want to be in a grand without it. 6 over 5 would absolutely deny K in my book and would be what you would do with AKx or AKQ. 5 is a cue with hearts agreed not a signoff.


You are right that 5S is the correct bid, however you are missing the point that if you try for a grand in a suit your partner has denied a control in, you automatically are known to have the ace of that suit. So 5S guarantees the CA also, not just a club control. The reason should be obvious, you cannot be off a first round control of a suit and make a grand so you shouldn't try for a grand when you are known to be off a first round control of a suit. Your suggested auction of bidding 5N over 5S means you need something more, probably a 5th heart or the HQ. That seems like how one would bid with AQJxx AKxxx A xx over 5S. In a perfect world you could stop in 6 opposite 3424 and get there opposite 3433, I'm sure theres enough room and we have 5N, 6C, and 6D all available, but in real life I would just bid 7H over 5S, and if I needed a 5th trump or the HQ that's what I'd bid 5N with (which is generally what 5N in these auctions is used for).

@Kurt: I am all about practical bridge but having bid 4H, you cannot be attempting to sign off in 5S. If you wanted to play spades then don't bid 4H. It is still possible that opener wants to play spades and bid 3H, but it is possible he wants to play hearts also so your signoff has to be 5H (and if partner wants to play spades he can go back to 5S over that). So yeah, 5S is definitely a cuebid even with no agreements, it is just bridge logic.
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