[jillybean]

---

1nt = 12-14, double described as "equivalent hand"


xx = I think you can make it
(Openers pass denies a 5 card suit and is the start of a run out sequence) thanks, fixed!

What is your call?

[helene_t]

But pass would terminate the auction so it can't be start of a run out sequence (except in the sense that p might run to the partnership desk when he sees dummy ).

Edit: Oh sorry, you mean opener's pass denies a 5-card suit?

Anyway, I pass at matchpoints but redouble at IMPs. We will probably make it and we don't need to redouble to get a good score at MPs.

[mikeh]

 jillybean, on 2015-September-02, 08:10, said:

---

1nt = 12-14, double described as "equivalent hand"


xx = I think you can make it
pass denies a 5 card suit and is the start of a run out sequence.

What is your call?

mps, an easy pass. If we make it, we have a near top or better. If we fail by 1, their 100 may still be good for us against 110. Imps, more interesting, since xx gets us a big score, but I still pass. I don't want them running to their best spot (altho they may not have one).....no, I chance my mind....with a good partner opposite, I redouble at imps.

[Jinksy]

Redacted drivel.

[jillybean]

 Jinksy, on 2015-September-02, 08:27, said:

I generally refuse to play runouts that deny me a natural pass. Given the choices (and their apparently underpowered double), I XX.

What is your sequence over a penalty double of a weak nt?

[steve2005]

Ok, you have passed 1N so you have already denied values for game, then if you think you can make 1N or don't think there is a better spot you should pass. This should be your maximum score. Yes, there will be hands where opener has a nice 14 and you had a bad 11 and didn't invite, or maybe cards are perfect and you have a game.. This is rare and systematically you have decided not to look for game so stick with your decision. Beside on this hand where your barren in 2 suits (and likely most hands) opponent will have a better spot to run to if 1NXX making.. So a redouble for penalty doesn't make much sense as a passed hand.

Ok then what should you do?
With this hand Pass, 1N might make and no guarantee of a better spot
With a 2-suiter bid 4+ card suits till a least a 4-3 fit found.
Redouble with a 5+card suit to play in. Opener must bid 2♣ pass or correct/

[rmnka447]

I'm passing

You have a good 9 HCP with honors working together and plenty of intermediate cards. The opponents have doubled. Since partner has denied a 5 card suit, even with an opening max, game seems like a remote possibility.

It's clearly one of those dream weak NT hands where the opponents appear to be in trouble. 1 NTx making should be a great result no matter the method of scoring. I don't care if RDBL says I think we can make it. Making a RDBL gives them a chance to run. When you have the opponents in a bad place, keep them there. Let sleeping dogs lie -- pass.

[ggwhiz]

 steve2005, on 2015-September-02, 08:54, said:

Ok then what should you do?
With this hand Pass, 1N might make and no guarantee of a better spot
With a 2-suiter redouble for partner to bid suits till at least a 4-3 found. As, in your system opener has denied a 5-card suit they may be bidding 3-card suits.
2-suit 5+card suit to play

I play this too, redouble starts a scramble and would pass. Fine if the redouble is to play but keep in mind that you will end up defending something doubled against any pair with a pulse. Perhaps a good thing on this one.

BTW, most passes of a weak notrump show a little something or they would have bid already so the equivalent hand double is a really bad idea and this pair probably doesn't have much of a pulse.

[Jinksy]

 jillybean, on 2015-September-02, 08:47, said:

What is your sequence over a penalty double of a weak nt?

With most partners, natural. If I have my way, some form of Stavely wriggle, where pass, XX and 2M are nat, and 2C and possibly 2D are two-way - either natural, or a 2-suiter in higher suits (letting the opps tell us if we're in the wrong place, or playing undoubled otherwise). If responder passes the X, opener has the same options.

[Zelandakh]

 Jinksy, on 2015-September-02, 11:10, said:

pass, XX and 2M are nat

Why would you want 2M to be natural after a protective double? In my world 2♥ by Responder shows both majors and 2♠ basically DNE.

[Vampyr]

 Jinksy, on 2015-September-02, 11:10, said:

With most partners, natural. If I have my way, some form of Stavely wriggle, where pass, XX and 2M are nat, and 2C and possibly 2D are two-way - either natural, or a 2-suiter in higher suits (letting the opps tell us if we're in the wrong place, or playing undoubled otherwise). If responder passes the X, opener has the same options.

Your Stavely wriggle is what most of my acquaintance do, with the difference that redoubling clubs shows 3 other places to play. We don't call this anything; it just seems a logical part of natural methods.

But opener does not have these options.

 Zelandakh, on 2015-September-03, 08:04, said:

Why would you want 2M to be natural after a protective double?

Is it totally useless to bid a 5-card suit if you have one?

[helene_t]

You probably don't have a 5cM since you didn't bid it before

[Zelandakh]

 Vampyr, on 2015-September-03, 09:10, said:

Is it totally useless to bid a 5-card suit if you have one?

If you had a 5 card major, would you have passed 1NT?

[WesleyC]

This hand is an obvious pass for me.

Regarding your methods, I don't think it makes any sense to play re-double as anything besides rescue in this sequence.

Especially at MPs there is almost no difference between +180 and +560/+760 on a hand where we don't have the balance the points.

[jillybean]

 WesleyC, on 2015-September-03, 11:31, said:

Regarding your methods, I don't think it makes any sense to play re-double as anything besides rescue in this sequence.
.

You're right, we had this mixed up with 1n (X), first time this sequence has come up.

[Vampyr]

 Zelandakh, on 2015-September-03, 10:15, said:

If you had a 5 card major, would you have passed 1NT?

Oh, I was under the impression that this was opener's bid over a reopening double.

[Zelandakh]

 Vampyr, on 2015-September-04, 00:52, said:

Oh, I was under the impression that this was opener's bid over a reopening double.

It was clear to me that that was not the case in the original post from this sub-thread - XX as natural from Opener would not make a lot of sense there!

[gszes]

PASS for many reasons

1. You have no reason to fear 1n your side has 21-23 hcp balanced opposite balanced.
2. Do not even dream of xx either as a runout (see 1 above) or penalty (giving opps another chance to avoid the disaster that is probably awaiting them). IMPS OR MP
3. The x gives your partner a VERY good idea on how to play the hand which most declarers will not have.
4. Your partner's 12-14 is BEHIND their 12-14 making your partners hand stronger and the opp's hand weaker than normal.
5. You not only have 9 hcp but a pretty fair number of intermediates which increase the chances of your making it.
6. Take advantage of the fact that the opps have made a mistake in competing this time. They probably have meta rules that prohibit the opps from playing 1N or 2M and this time the rule is a heavy favorite to fail. Sit back relax and enjoy the carnage.

As an aside these types of hands are the main reason opener should never be starting a run out or running from 1n on their own. Save the running for responder because they will have a far far better idea on the advisabiity of playing 1n x. Responder should be able to xx if they wish to start a run out sequence or bid any suit naturally as an escape (IMHO).

[jillybean]

 gszes, on 2015-September-04, 08:01, said:

PASS for many reasons

1. You have no reason to fear 1n your side has 21-23 hcp balanced opposite balanced.
2. Do not even dream of xx either as a runout (see 1 above) or penalty (giving opps another chance to avoid the disaster that is probably awaiting them). IMPS OR MP
3. The x gives your partner a VERY good idea on how to play the hand which most declarers will not have.
4. Your partner's 12-14 is BEHIND their 12-14 making your partners hand stronger and the opp's hand weaker than normal.
5. You not only have 9 hcp but a pretty fair number of intermediates which increase the chances of your making it.
6. Take advantage of the fact that the opps have made a mistake in competing this time. They probably have meta rules that prohibit the opps from playing 1N or 2M and this time the rule is a heavy favorite to fail. Sit back relax and enjoy the carnage.

As an aside these types of hands are the main reason opener should never be starting a run out or running from 1n on their own. Save the running for responder because they will have a far far better idea on the advisabiity of playing 1n x. Responder should be able to xx if they wish to start a run out sequence or bid any suit naturally as an escape (IMHO).

Hi, I am sure I agree with your statement that opener should never be starting a run out sequence from 1n. If opener runs and partner has this great hand as I did here, we will find a place to play and if the opponents bid on, responder can double. If opener can't start the run out we may miss our 5-3 or better fit. Not having a run out for opener seems to be limiting our options to gain an advantage on perhaps only a few hands.

I will watch out for it this weekend, we have our Sectional on for 3 days

[BillPatch]

While I agree that pass is normally the correct action at IMPs there is something to be said for the redouble. 1NT doubled is not game, and even if we know they will not sit the double of the runout might average +300for 2 down. And perhaps they are clueless enough to sit.

Only normally at IMPs, State of the match may influence this decision both at IMP pairs and IMP teams.