[UdcaDenny]

We play 2/1 and I open 1S with AKxxx AQxx Qxx x and my p bid 2H with xx KJxxx AKxx Kx. I jump to 4C, splinter for H. What shud my p bid ?

[billw55]

4♦ cue seems automatic. In fact bypassing it would deny a control there.

[kenrexford]

IMO,4D is not a cuebid of diamonds and does not show a diamond control. It is Last Train.

[boosterbbh]

Splinter started controls. It's better to play controls now and not last train. U can show a control in d or even is spades. If u4d isn't control p will have bigger problems continuing

[helene_t]

I would sign off. The splinter asks partner to reevaluate his hand, it doesn't ask for a control bid.

Possibly your hand was too strong for a splinter. But that is a question of agreement.

[jodepp]

kenrexford, on 2015-August-27, 17:10, said:

IMO,4D is not a cuebid of diamonds and does not show a diamond control. It is Last Train.

I'm a little vague on 'last train' - given the thread auction, does 'last train' - if the partnership uses the principle - simply say 'I'm slammish without a spade control'?

[fromageGB]

I don't know what strength you promise or deny with the splinter, or whether it may be a void, but assuming it is open-ended and slam seeking, then partner's hand is justified in going perhaps beyond game. He is not a bare minimum, and the AKs make it suitable for a heart slam.

A common procedure for us if not a no-hoper hand after a shortage has been shown (eg J2N, splinter) is to bid the next step asking whether singleton or void. So I bid 4♦. The reply is next step = 4♥ = singleton (a void would give the ace response, as we play 4S ace asking). Over 4♥ a slam may be there with possible diamond losers going on spades, so on the basis that partner was slam seeking I bid 6♥.

However, I would not choose to bid that way. As you I would quietly agree hearts with 3♥ and then cue bidding would follow.

[Zelandakh]

helene_t, on 2015-August-28, 04:58, said:

I would sign off. The splinter asks partner to reevaluate his hand, it doesn't ask for a control bid.

Possibly your hand was too strong for a splinter. But that is a question of agreement.

This. If you splinter with a hand this many extras it is implicit that you are willing to continue 4♠ over partner's 4♥ rebid. Of course you could agree that the splinter shows extras but if that were the case I assume it would have been mentioned.

[kenrexford]

boosterbbh, on 2015-August-28, 04:52, said:

Splinter started controls. It's better to play controls now and not last train. U can show a control in d or even is spades. If u4d isn't control p will have bigger problems continuing

5D is available for the diamond cue. If 4D is a cue, then 5D is last train. I like last train earlier.

[kenrexford]

jodepp, on 2015-August-28, 05:12, said:

I'm a little vague on 'last train' - given the thread auction, does 'last train' - if the partnership uses the principle - simply say 'I'm slammish without a spade control'?

It says, I don't like the stiff, but I still like my hand somewhat. It says nothing about spades.

[kenrexford]

General principles need addressed here.

A 1 under splinter (4D in support of hearts) should be tight.

A 2 under splinter (this case) can be more flexible if last train is used.

For idiotic simplicity, assume HCP and a general range of opening strength. 4D might be 14 or 15. 4C might be 12 to 15, with 4D back asking to go if 14 or 15. It is not HCP, but the gist is the same.

If you make 4D a cue, you tighten partners range for no good reason. You end up with a 5D cue of little value. If anything, 4D as a denial cue makes more sense in this specific sequence, but principles should be somewhat consistent, and lttc infers possible problems anyway. Lttc allows the partnership to Guage. Whether the 5 level is safe for the cues.

[UdcaDenny]

UdcaDenny, on 2015-August-27, 13:11, said:

We play 2/1 and I open 1S with AKxxx AQxx Qxx x and my p bid 2H with xx KJxxx AKxx Kx. I jump to 4C, splinter for H. What shud my p bid ?

My p didnt like my splinter in C as he had Kx and signed off in 4H. He said it was up to me to go on. As I wanted to know if he had a control in D I passed his 4H and we missed slam. Im used to italian cuebids and if you bypass a suit you deny first or second control. Maybe oldfashioned but logical for me. By the way what means last train, never heard of that before.

[blackshoe]

"There's these things called control bids."

"Oh, yeah? How do they work?"

"Damned if I know."

[kenrexford]

UdcaDenny, on 2015-August-29, 02:15, said:

My p didnt like my splinter in C as he had Kx and signed off in 4H. He said it was up to me to go on. As I wanted to know if he had a control in D I passed his 4H and we missed slam. Im used to italian cuebids and if you bypass a suit you deny first or second control. Maybe oldfashioned but logical for me. By the way what means last train, never heard of that before.

Very complicated, and yet very easy. A simplistic meaning is inviting without committing.

The simplest version is this situation. When there is only one possible bid between the last call made and the final contract if we sign off, the call in the middle invites moves beyond.

The trick is in knowing whether the auction calls for a true control bid or a general invite. A good general rule is that the presumptive captain uses last train, while the first mate uses true.

In this example, a splinter usually is somewhat tight. As such, the splinterer expects partner to make a decision, and hence the person not splintering, who typically has the unknown hand, is the presumptive captain. As such, his cue right under destination is last train, asking the first mate to tell more.

Last train can be more complicated, though. Suppose a 3S splinter supporting hearts. If partner cuebids 4C, that's not one under, and hence true.

What about 3H supporting hearts, and then a 4C cue? Now, the 4C control also reveals a spade hole. In that situation, 4D next confirms the spade control (why else carry on?) Bur, doubt. The suspect doubt is often control of diamonds. Hence, in that situation, last train reasoning makes the 4D cue actually show a spade control but tend to deny a diamond control. Without last train, 4D would show both, diamonds and spades, but that is wasteful and inefficient.

FWIW, I detail this in depth in my book, Cuebidding at Bridge, a Modern Approach.

[Zelandakh]

UdcaDenny, on 2015-August-29, 02:15, said:

My p didnt like my splinter in C as he had Kx and signed off in 4H. He said it was up to me to go on. As I wanted to know if he had a control in D I passed his 4H and we missed slam. Im used to italian cuebids and if you bypass a suit you deny first or second control. Maybe oldfashioned but logical for me. By the way what means last train, never heard of that before.

As I wrote above, if you just want to find out about a diamond control you can continue 4♠ and this highlights the issue very clearly. If you feel too weak to continue past 4♥ then you would be better off going more slowly. Last Train in this situation can just as easily be described as a general slam try. It is a useful tool in many slam auctions but has the downside in this situation of needing to bypass 4NT before being able to exchange a full set of control bids.

[zillahandp]

Well anything (almosr than 4hts, he only has six losers so defo in slam territory. I would just bid 6hts but if you prefer 4nt rkcb or 4d providing it does show first round contorl, if not 4nt but all that does is fiddle unless splinter can be first round contolif it can 5c is possible showing all aces
Zelandakh seems to confuse what is simple.

[Zelandakh]

zillahandp, on 2015-August-29, 08:21, said:

Well anything (almosr than 4hts, he only has six losers so defo in slam territory. I would just bid 6hts but if you prefer 4nt rkcb or 4d providing it does show first round contorl, if not 4nt but all that does is fiddle unless splinter can be first round contolif it can 5c is possible showing all aces
Zelandakh seems to confuse what is simple.

I do not remember mentioning the word "simple" in this thread. Ken did but in combination with the word "complicated". Counting Kx as 1 loser in a suit where we know partner is already counting as 0 or 1 loser is the kind of evaluation that LTC users need to be wary of. Give Opener a minimum 5431 hand and see how good a direct jump to 6♥ looks.

Finally, 4♦ showing first round control is way down on the list here - all of Roman cue bid, DCB and Last Train are significantly better. The direct jump to 6♥ is only "obvious" when you can see partner's hand, in the normal scheme of things it is a serious mistake imho.

[beautyleg]

Even a beginner will suggest 4nt asking ......

[akwoo]

Here are my default simple agreements:

1) Below game, one must cue bid (first or second round control) unless one has a subminimum after subtracting wastage.
2) Above game, one must cue if there is a perfect subminimum that makes slam.

Based on that, I think partner is correct in not cuebidding diamonds (unless you open very sound and hence partner would make a 2/1 bid on xx KJxxx AKxx xx). With your hand, you have to bid 4♠ over partner's 4♥ since 6♥ is good opposite the perfect subminimum x Kxxxx AKxx xxx. (In fact, it's not terrible opposite x Kxxxx AJxx xxx!) Partner can bid RKCB over 4♠.

[cherdano]

akwoo, on 2015-August-29, 13:41, said:

Here are my default simple agreements:

1) Below game, one must cue bid (first or second round control) unless one has a subminimum after subtracting wastage.
2) Above game, one must cue if there is a perfect subminimum that makes slam.

Hmm - that's not how I like to think about splinters. For me, a splinter is a minimumish game force with shortness (and slam-suitable values). Then partner looks at his hand and sees whether he could make slam opposite such a hand. If not, he signs off. If he needs mild extras (maximum for a minimumish game force) he makes a cuebid. If he doesn't need extras, he drives to slam.

Now while I like this rule better in general, I think in this auction, it leads pretty much to the same result.
Of course, opener's range is of course constrained having opened. Hence 4♣ just shows a minimum opening with shortness and slam suitable values. AKxxx AQxx xxx x would be a pretty good slam, but that's of course a perfect fit. AQxxx Axxx Qxx x would be terrible. In many other hands we are missing two keycards, and could go down in 5♥ on bad breaks. I think responder is just about too weak to make a positive move.

(Oh and for me 4♦ would just be a slam try - "we can make slam if you have extras". For some reason, some called that "last train".)