4NT over 4D
#21
Posted 2015-August-25, 02:20
Acol or not is obviously irrelevant but maybe votes from hogs, rabbits, chimps, walruses and humans should be excluded from wombat-only polls.
If you want to use it as a slam try maybe shortness ask is more useful than rkc. Or maybe asking about the length of the suit.
Playing 4nt as natural maybe you could play 5c as a slam try.
#22
Posted 2015-August-25, 02:45
tommyst, on 2015-August-25, 01:59, said:
If you are bidding 4NT to play you would be doing so not because it outscores 5D but because you judge it likely to be the last making game. In that case it is every bit as relevant in IMPs.
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mstr-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.
"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
#23
Posted 2015-August-25, 04:29
At matchpoints there is more going for it, but partner knows it's matchpoints and has chosen to bypass 3NT with the opening bid. So that reduces the likelihood of 4NT as natural working, and it is still useful for slam purposes.
Luckily, the two regular partners I have so far polled agree with me.
What is the counterargument?
#24
Posted 2015-August-25, 05:02
sfi, on 2015-August-25, 04:29, said:
At matchpoints there is more going for it, but partner knows it's matchpoints and has chosen to bypass 3NT with the opening bid. So that reduces the likelihood of 4NT as natural working, and it is still useful for slam purposes.
Luckily, the two regular partners I have so far polled agree with me.
What is the counterargument?
You are not really in a minority, we are quite evenly split.
The counterargument to
"the number of hands where 4NT is right and 5D is wrong seems [to you] to be much smaller than the number of hands that want to know about trump quality via key cards"
is
"the number of hands where 4NT is right and 5D is wrong does not seem [to me] to be smaller than the number of hands that want to know about trump quality via key cards."
I guess you could add "game before slam" as well if you like. I like having a bunch of available strains to play in rather than a bunch of slam tries. I don't really mind missing a few slams by just raising to 5♦.
As in a lot of these bridge-related arguments, it just boils down to personal preference and it's tough to concretely quantify or build convincing syllogisms.
George Carlin
#25
Posted 2015-August-25, 05:32
gwnn, on 2015-August-25, 05:02, said:
"the number of hands where 4NT is right and 5D is wrong seems [to you] to be much smaller than the number of hands that want to know about trump quality via key cards"
is
"the number of hands where 4NT is right and 5D is wrong does not seem [to me] to be smaller than the number of hands that want to know about trump quality via key cards."
I guess you could add "game before slam" as well if you like. I like having a bunch of available strains to play in rather than a bunch of slam tries. I don't really mind missing a few slams by just raising to 5♦.
As in a lot of these bridge-related arguments, it just boils down to personal preference and it's tough to concretely quantify or build convincing syllogisms.
Fair enough. A well-placed simulation would probably go a long way to answering it, but meh.
I agree with game before slam, but IMO partner has already answered the question of strain.
#26
Posted 2015-August-25, 05:42
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mstr-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.
"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
#27
Posted 2015-August-25, 05:51
BillPatch, on 2015-August-24, 14:42, said:
I apologize to those who find my flippant humor offensive, especially the remark about the two royal majesties. There are technical reasons that Dutch Acol has developed separately from acol in the English speaking countries, and that is the reason I rejected the Dutch entry.
So, Wombatica may well be Australian.
I grant you that Dutch "Acol" has little to do with British Acol. But why is Acol relevant to begin with?
Unless you have agreed on something conventional (like Namyats or South African Texas), 4♦ is a preemptive opening, whether you play Acol, SAYC, 2/1, Precision, Viking club, Carrotti, Magic Diamond, Crazy Diamond, Polish club, Swedish club, Ultimate club, Regress or Säffle Spade. In any of these systems, you can play a variety of preempting styles that are mostly unrelated to the system.
Whether Wombatica plays Acol (British, Dutch) or anything else is less relevant than the fact that he is probably having a snack in front of the TV while I am typing this.
Rik
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#28
Posted 2015-August-26, 10:33
4NT by a non-passed partner over a 'true' suit opening (not a transfer type 4 level opening) should always be some form of Blackwood agreeing ♦s as trump by proxy. (Except if you have an agreement with your partner that it isn't.)
The final contract will be always decided by your partner. If after your response he/she bids 7♥ you must leave it.
#29
Posted 2015-August-26, 12:39
The_Badger, on 2015-August-26, 10:33, said:
4NT by a non-passed partner over a 'true' suit opening (not a transfer type 4 level opening) should always be some form of Blackwood agreeing ♦s as trump by proxy. (Except if you have an agreement with your partner that it isn't.)
The final contract will be always decided by your partner. If after your response he/she bids 7♥ you must leave it.
However, Wombatica, when you improve and reach the intermediate level, you will learn that if partner next bids 5NT, ostensibly asking for kings, he is also promising your side has all the A's and asking you bid 7NT if you have an independent source of tricks. Here that would be a solid diamond suit.
#30
Posted 2015-August-26, 13:28
The reason I ask for the British Commonwealth info is that I have played bridge for the last forty years, mainly in the US, and here US players would know that the standard w/o discussion would be their agreed form of Blackwood. I was surprised by the number of British votes for Natural, and curious about how widespread that treatment was. In much of the British Commonwealth acol is the standard teaching system(not so much in Canada where Barbara Seagram teaches SA). I am conducting this poll both to satisfy my curiosity and also as a service to the bridge world.
Come back, Wombatica. All is forgiven! I am curious about your background.
#31
Posted 2015-August-26, 14:19
George Carlin
#32
Posted 2015-August-26, 16:32
The earlier courses are taught more often, but at least 4% of the bridge classes taught at the adult level are for the conventions level. Since the two large English speaking countries in ACBL have so many bridge players, I doubt gwnn's 99+% of bridge classes worldwide is accurate.
Perhaps later I will develop some curiosity about bridge teaching outside the ACBL and do some really relevant research for the bridge world. Fortunately, I have more pressing matters on my queue right now.
Thanks everyone, for your enquiries about this inane poll. I particularly thank those who respond to my poll.
#33
Posted 2015-August-26, 16:53
BillPatch, on 2015-August-26, 16:32, said:
The earlier courses are taught more often, but at least 4% of the bridge classes taught at the adult level are for the conventions level. Since the two large English speaking countries in ACBL have so many bridge players, I doubt gwnn's 99+% of bridge classes worldwide is accurate.
Perhaps later I will develop some curiosity about bridge teaching outside the ACBL and do some really relevant research for the bridge world. Fortunately, I have more pressing matters on my queue right now.
Thanks everyone, for your enquiries about this inane poll. I particularly thank those who respond to my poll.
I may be out of line but I have put you on ignore. I think it's for the best.
#34
Posted 2015-August-27, 01:03
p-p-4H-4NT
all pass
And the overcaller got upset (we slipped about 5 tricks on defence but he still went for -4) because he meant 4N as ace asking! And his partner just thought it was natural. Yea I know some people get taught "4NT is ALWAYS ace asking" or some such nonsense but that's not the same as discussing 4m-p-4NT or (4m)-4NT.
George Carlin
#35
Posted 2015-August-27, 01:19
The obvious answer to that is to use 4D as the ace ask and 4N is then natural, giving you the best of both worlds.
Also we have been concentrating on 4m, which is a different universe than 4M openers, but again the utility of 4N as a natural bid over 4M is nil. Likewise a 4M opener is likely to be more widely defined an so elevating the benefits of an ace ask.
So the 4D opener seems to me to be the only one that has any scope for debate (on merits, whatever is standard).
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mstr-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.
"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq