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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#6661 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-July-02, 12:44

 jogs, on 2017-July-02, 06:34, said:

This has nothing to do with republicans. It's the new information tech. 5% of the population is of real value. They are mostly democrats and they are getting all the money. Zuckerburg says in the near future robots will replace 50% of the workforce.

Old rules no longer apply. The govt must provide income to the useless 50%.

If Zuckerburg is on record saying that 50% of the workforce will be replaced by robots, he should provide some solutions for what society should do for the displaced "disposable containers." Robots don't have to provide for their families, but humans do.

We have to be honest here. We will be competing against soulless metal and computer chips for our future jobs. We don't perceive this technological automation as a threat to our economic stability even though it is....but we do see the threat when its another human who is an illegal immigrant.

Same encroachment problem different form. When the driverless car technology becomes fully automated, there will be a bunch of disillusioned drivers protesting in the streets when their "secure" jobs are replaced. Corporate America will march on and privatize the productivity gains/profits and pawn off the societal job eliminations to the government.
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#6662 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-July-02, 13:19

 awm, on 2017-July-02, 00:44, said:

And a smaller government won't fix all the problems either. When we had a smaller federal government (back before the Great Depression) big companies basically walked all over their employees, and inequality was quite a bit worse than it is now. The time when productivity gains were shared evenly was roughly 1945-1980, and key features included very high tax rates on the top incomes, more regulation of banks and potential monopolies, cheaper access to education than exists today (mostly funded at the state level), stronger unions in the workplace, and jail time for white collar criminals (rather than fines which are tiny compared to the profits made from the criminal activity).

Would it be fair to say that another feature of that time compared to today is a lack of an international tax market. One of the primary reasons why even socialist governments do not raise taxes to similar rates to before is that the people in the top tax brackets are able to re-register their holdings offshore, in some cases even moving their primary residence, meaning that the tax rake takes a msssive hit. This means that the rich are essentially able to demand a tax rate below a certain threashold.

This is actually the one area of government where I had some small hope that Trump might do something positive (given how often he spoke about how he undesrtands the tax system like no other and would reform it). Being able to force big businesses and the wealthiest individuals to pay their fair share of taxes despite such tax avoidance strategies would make a huge difference and allow America to move forward on issues such as healthcare as discussed in the other thread. So far though, the only move on tax appears to be for big businesses and the wealthiest to pay less, which is surely a retrograde step, not only for equality (currently regarded as the most statistically significant factor in national happiness) but also for the country as a whole.
(-: Zel :-)
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#6663 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2017-July-02, 13:30

 Zelandakh, on 2017-July-02, 13:19, said:

W Being able to force big businesses and the wealthiest individuals to pay their fair share of taxes despite such tax avoidance strategies


"Fair" is in the eyes of the beholder. I assume that many of the wealthy think that because their capital is providing so many jobs for others that their "fair" share should be even less than it is now.
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#6664 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-July-02, 15:05

 ldrews, on 2017-July-02, 13:30, said:

"Fair" is in the eyes of the beholder. I assume that many of the wealthy think that because their capital is providing so many jobs for others that their "fair" share should be even less than it is now.


Spoken like a true supply-side proponent. My response: Kansas.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
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#6665 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2017-July-02, 15:48

 Winstonm, on 2017-July-02, 15:05, said:

Spoken like a true supply-side proponent. My response: Kansas.


Spoken like a true socialist. Your response is unintelligible.
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#6666 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-July-02, 17:37

 ldrews, on 2017-July-02, 15:48, said:

Spoken like a true socialist. Your response is unintelligible.

http://www.npr.org/2...-to-raise-taxes

I think this provides a bit more clarity about the trickle-down nature of tax cuts for businesses.
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#6667 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-July-02, 17:38

.deleted
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#6668 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2017-July-02, 18:29

 RedSpawn, on 2017-July-02, 17:37, said:

http://www.npr.org/2...-to-raise-taxes

I think this provides a bit more clarity about the trickle-down nature of tax cuts for businesses.


Thank you for the link. I have never believed in tax cuts as a panacea for growth. They are but one of the drivers.

There is currently no social consensus on how our society should be run and structured. As we raise taxes to pay for more and increased social programs, as we impose more laws and regulations in an attempt to prevent damage to anybody, businesses and creative people flee to other jurisdictions where such things are not implemented. Unless we are willing to impose draconian and repressive restraints, that will continue to be the case. But then society will not look anything like the society that I grew up in. And such an approach offends my sensibilities. "This lady is not for turning!"
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#6669 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2017-July-02, 23:12

 ldrews, on 2017-July-02, 18:29, said:

Thank you for the link. I have never believed in tax cuts as a panacea for growth. They are but one of the drivers.

There is currently no social consensus on how our society should be run and structured. As we raise taxes to pay for more and increased social programs, as we impose more laws and regulations in an attempt to prevent damage to anybody, businesses and creative people flee to other jurisdictions where such things are not implemented. Unless we are willing to impose draconian and repressive restraints, that will continue to be the case. But then society will not look anything like the society that I grew up in. And such an approach offends my sensibilities. "This lady is not for turning!"


for a first step you are offended.

second step society is not as you grew up in...

I understand...evolution is confusing and complicated....
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#6670 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2017-July-03, 01:49

 ldrews, on 2017-July-02, 18:29, said:

As we raise taxes to pay for more and increased social programs, as we impose more laws and regulations in an attempt to prevent damage to anybody, businesses and creative people flee to other jurisdictions where such things are not implemented.

Right. That's why all innovative businesses flee California, and why not creative people want to work there.

Quote

And such an approach offends my sensibilities.

Snowflake needs a safe space?
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#6671 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-July-03, 02:16

 mike777, on 2017-July-02, 23:12, said:

for a first step you are offended.

second step society is not as you grew up in...

I understand...evolution is confusing and complicated....


We need to delve here:
https://www.defense....udget-proposal/

https://www.national...ng-out-control/
https://www.national...ncy-operations/

Before we look for tax cuts, can someone on the left or right of the aisle tell me...
1) why does the Department of Defense request a war contingency fund of $52 billion called the OCO? See link #1 and #3. It's a slush fund.
2) why does our defense cost almost $600 billion annually ... See link #2. It is approximately 55% of our annual discretionary budget and is more than defense of 7 different countries' military budgets COMBINED.
3) how does the Department of Defense know it needs these amounts when it can't fix a $6 trillion year-end accounting entry problem over 17 years and can't produce reliable financial statements approved by our own Inspector General in ANY of those years?

These are very fair questions for the white elephant in the room.
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#6672 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-July-03, 03:14

 RedSpawn, on 2017-July-03, 02:16, said:

Before we look for tax cuts, can someone on the left or right of the aisle tell me...
1) why does the Department of Defense request a war contingency fund of $52 billion called the OCO? See link #1 and #3. It's a slush fund.
2) why does our defense cost almost $600 billion annually ... See link #2. It is approximately 55% of our annual discretionary budget and is more than defense of 7 different countries' military budgets COMBINED.
3) how does the Department of Defense know it needs these amounts when it can't fix a $6 trillion year-end accounting entry problem over 17 years and can't produce reliable financial statements approved by our own Inspector General in ANY of those years?

1. Because GWB set this up as an emergency fund for the "Global War on Terrorism" and it has continued every year since. The change of name to "Overseas Contingency Operations", often abbreviated to OCO/GWOT, reflects changes in the usage of the fund over time. Whether the fund is still appropriate is another question but you are probably aware that once funds are created they tend to be difficult to shut down.

2. Because it is US policy to hold overwhelming military might over any possible enemy including the ability to fight on multiple fronts. A war against an opponents such as Russia or China would tax the US military even with such spending and there are signs that China wants to ramp up their military, first land and air forces but eventually also to be able to challenge America on the seas. Quite aside from the practical case, the military also holds strong political clout and attempts to rationalise would run into all sorts of difficulties at both local and national levels.

3. If you look at your bank account at the start of the year, get a certain (known) budget/salary and then look at your bank account at the end of the year, you know how much has been spent irrespective of the accounting in-between. You can then know (or estimate) how much more or less then this you need in the following year and take this as your next base figure. It is not necessary to know precisely how much is being spent on ammunition, chicken or washing powder, for budgets you only need to know the end figures. And has already been pointed out to you, those are perfectly correct; it is only the internal accounting discrepancies between the various books that adds up to the quoted figure.
(-: Zel :-)
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#6673 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2017-July-03, 08:08

 mike777, on 2017-July-02, 23:12, said:

for a first step you are offended.

second step society is not as you grew up in...

I understand...evolution is confusing and complicated....


Third steo is that I, and many like me, vote.
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#6674 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2017-July-03, 08:10

 cherdano, on 2017-July-03, 01:49, said:

Right. That's why all innovative businesses flee California, and why not creative people want to work there.


Snowflake needs a safe space?


Asshole needs a place to pontificate?
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#6675 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2017-July-03, 08:12

 RedSpawn, on 2017-July-03, 02:16, said:

We need to delve here:
https://www.defense....udget-proposal/

https://www.national...ng-out-control/
https://www.national...ncy-operations/

Before we look for tax cuts, can someone on the left or right of the aisle tell me...
1) why does the Department of Defense request a war contingency fund of $52 billion called the OCO? See link #1 and #3. It's a slush fund.
2) why does our defense cost almost $600 billion annually ... See link #2. It is approximately 55% of our annual discretionary budget and is more than defense of 7 different countries' military budgets COMBINED.
3) how does the Department of Defense know it needs these amounts when it can't fix a $6 trillion year-end accounting entry problem over 17 years and can't produce reliable financial statements approved by our own Inspector General in ANY of those years?

These are very fair questions for the white elephant in the room.


Absolutely agree. Actual defense of the US territory can probably be done for 10% of current defense budget.
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#6676 User is offline   RedSpawn 

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Posted 2017-July-03, 10:52

 Zelandakh, on 2017-July-03, 03:14, said:

1. Because GWB set this up as an emergency fund for the "Global War on Terrorism" and it has continued every year since. The change of name to "Overseas Contingency Operations", often abbreviated to OCO/GWOT, reflects changes in the usage of the fund over time. Whether the fund is still appropriate is another question but you are probably aware that once funds are created they tend to be difficult to shut down.

2. Because it is US policy to hold overwhelming military might over any possible enemy including the ability to fight on multiple fronts. A war against an opponents such as Russia or China would tax the US military even with such spending and there are signs that China wants to ramp up their military, first land and air forces but eventually also to be able to challenge America on the seas. Quite aside from the practical case, the military also holds strong political clout and attempts to rationalise would run into all sorts of difficulties at both local and national levels.

3. If you look at your bank account at the start of the year, get a certain (known) budget/salary and then look at your bank account at the end of the year, you know how much has been spent irrespective of the accounting in-between. You can then know (or estimate) how much more or less then this you need in the following year and take this as your next base figure. It is not necessary to know precisely how much is being spent on ammunition, chicken or washing powder, for budgets you only need to know the end figures. And has already been pointed out to you, those are perfectly correct; it is only the internal accounting discrepancies between the various books that adds up to the quoted figure.


Quote

It is not necessary to know precisely how much is being spent on ammunition, chicken or washing powder, for budgets you only need to know the end figures. And has already been pointed out to you, those are perfectly correct; it is only the internal accounting discrepancies between the various books that adds up to the quoted figure.

This is a very dangerous quote. If the Department of Defense (DoD) paid double the market rate on ammunition, we need to know about it. If the DoD paid double the market rate on chicken or washing powder, we need to know about it. If the military paid an extra $28 million on uniforms, we need to know about it.

Seeing stuff like this, https://www.usatoday...says/413219001/ makes me wonder what other savings opportunities abound at the Pentagon. If DoD can't avoid a $28 million procurement error like this, what other outrageous procurement purchases are flying beneath the radar? Please note it is a Special Inspector General who uncovered this mismanagement of resources. A normal or periodic management review did not uncover these wasteful expenditures.

See how the Pentagon is hiding up to $125 billion in cost savings===> https://www.washingt...m=.47b4af04c025

I am not questioning IF the DoD spent their entire budget; government agencies are very good at doing that. We need to know if the DoD has responsibly used the resources that were appropriated to them. The devil is in the details NOT in the $6.0+ trillion year-end accounting entry to balance the books.

With a $600 billion ANNUAL budget, the last assurances we need to hear from management is, "Trust us. We spent the money well. You have our word on it." $600 billion is the monetary equivalent of winning a $1,000,000 lottery 600,000 separate times. We need to get a strong handle on exactly what's being spent in that budget. We have a duty to "trust but verify" as Former President Ronald Reagan would say.

What Congress and the public doesn't know is HOW the DoD spent that money; if it's being spent responsibly and with due care; and if procured items are essential and necessary. Perhaps mismanaged or diverted money can be used towards that 2.1% wage increase for the military personnel.

Please do not downplay the fact that the Inspector General has issued a disclaimer of opinion over the DoD's financials for the last 17 years. This is not just some rinky-dink IT problem that is overshadowing the financials. Congress can't control what it can't accurately measure. If DoD management wanted to issue transparent financials, they would have done so within a span of 17 years.

However, being dubious and opaque is good for intransigent bureaucracies. Very few people will question the DoD about being 54% of the discretionary spending of the federal budget. But we needn't argue over the other departments when there is potentially so much low-hanging fruit from the DoD tree.

Posted Image

Procurement and Operations & Maintenance is over 1/3 of $1 trillion annually. We need to review that detail because I am convinced there's plenty of cost savings if only the DoD would provide some reliable financial statements (and supporting schedules) we can sink our teeth into.
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#6677 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-July-03, 12:44

 ldrews, on 2017-July-03, 08:10, said:

Asshole needs a place to pontificate?

That's why you are here isn't it? ;) :ph34r: :lol:
(-: Zel :-)
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#6678 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2017-July-03, 12:48

 Zelandakh, on 2017-July-03, 12:44, said:

That's why you are here isn't it? ;) :ph34r: :lol:


Yes, to recognize assholes.
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#6679 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-July-03, 15:30

 ldrews, on 2017-July-03, 12:48, said:

Yes, to recognize assholes.

Just look in any mirror, mate. It's not rocket science.
(-: Zel :-)
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#6680 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2017-July-03, 16:18

 Zelandakh, on 2017-July-03, 15:30, said:

Just look in any mirror, mate. It's not rocket science.


Don't need to, looking at you.
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