[helene_t]

rmnka447, on 2016-November-13, 18:04, said:

Political correctness wouldn't be that much of a problem if it were used simply as you define it. But, unfortunately, some progressives try to use it as a club to silence any disagreement with what they see as the only acceptable view of social and political issues.

Ha-ha, I upvoted a post that was also upvoted by Jon

To me, the expression "political correctness" has a silly connotation, something like making up awkward ways of saying things in a way that make them sound less derogatory. Such as "visually challenged" which is in fact much worse than "blind" because the use of the word expresses the view that concept is awkward.

On the other hand, I also think that it is easy as a priviledged person who does not belong to any socially disadvantaged group to underestimate how hurtful it is if people make silly jokes or advocate "profiling". For example, when Dutch media discuss the "blackfacing" tradition of the St Nicolas celebration, I find it difficult to relate to it, but then I try to imagine how I would feel if people were making fun of transsexuals in a similar way.

I prefer to talk about decency instead of political correctness. Yeah it is just semantics, I know. But to me, political correctness sounds like a taboo on discussing anything that is politically inconvenient, such as for example oppression of women in non-Western ethnic communities.

Also I think that "politically correct" is an oxymoron. Something can be factually correct, or it can be politically convenient.

[hrothgar]

rmnka447, on 2016-November-13, 18:04, said:

You ought to read "The Silencing" by Kirsten Powers. She is a dyed-in-the-wool LIBERAL and CNN contributor.

Once upon a time, she might have been a liberal, however, she had one of those road to Damascus type epiphanies and now self identifies as an evangelical Christian.

This was about the same time that she started associating with outlets like Regnery Publishing...

[hrothgar]

helene_t, on 2016-November-14, 04:03, said:

To me, the expression "political correctness" has a silly connotation, something like making up awkward ways of saying things in a way that make them sound less derogatory.

"Political correctness" is an expression of tribalism.
Its a club that folks can use to attack liberals for being sanctimonious.

Don't get me wrong, I went to Wesleyan University where political correctness is a way of life...
[There is actually a character in the movie "PCU" vaguely based on me]

With this said and done, I find it remarkable that the same people who rail against Political Correctness also get mortally offended when people label them with expressions like "Basket of Deplorables".

Simply put, it's the not the behavior of the liberals that their critics disapprove of, rather, the only question is who is being targetted

[Zelandakh]

rmnka447, on 2016-November-12, 23:37, said:

Funny, but one of the prime factors that drove some people to vote for Trump at the end was the thought that Hillary Clinton would be appointing Supreme Court justices.

Progressives/liberals only have themselves to blame. It seems like whenever they talk about judges it's in terms of appointing judges who agree with the liberal agenda and will essentially rubber stamp it. But judicial appointments should never be about enabling anyone's agenda -- progressive or conservative.

Could you name the last 5 judges appointed by Republican presidents that were liberal in their views and supported a woman's right to choose?

[Al_U_Card]

jonottawa, on 2016-November-13, 11:09, said:

The essence of it is that the regressive Left hates America (the constitution, rule of law, checks & balances, ethical journalism, morality, patriotism, liberty, meritocracy, freedom of speech, right to bear arms, don't tread on me.) And many Americans still love America. And so the regressive Left has decided in its infinite wisdom to replace Americans who love America with foreigners who hate America as much as they do.

Rather, they hate people with ideas that do not conform to their own. Difference, for them, means insecurity and that breeds fear which adequately explains the visceral and vituperative attitude. The smug and sanctimonious attitudes come from life in an echo-chamber where self-congratulatory platitudes replace reasoned debate and skeptical attitudes.

[PassedOut]

rmnka447, on 2016-November-12, 23:37, said:

Funny, but one of the prime factors that drove some people to vote for Trump at the end was the thought that Hillary Clinton would be appointing Supreme Court justices.

... judicial appointments should never be about enabling anyone's agenda -- progressive or conservative ...

If the courts ever become widely politicized, then we're well down the slippery slope to a totalitarian government.

Trump: Roe v. Wade is dead

Quote

In his first prime-time television interview since his upset victory on Tuesday, Mr. Trump repeated his promise to name a Supreme Court justice who opposed abortion rights and would help overturn the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision that recognized them, returning the issue to the states.

Asked where that would leave women seeking abortions, Mr. Trump, on the CBS program “60 Minutes,” said, “Well, they’ll perhaps have to go — they’ll have to go to another state.”

[kenberg]

helene_t, on 2016-November-14, 04:03, said:

Ha-ha, I upvoted a post that was also upvoted by Jon

To me, the expression "political correctness" has a silly connotation, something like making up awkward ways of saying things in a way that make them sound less derogatory. Such as "visually challenged" which is in fact much worse than "blind" because the use of the word expresses the view that concept is awkward.

On the other hand, I also think that it is easy as a priviledged person who does not belong to any socially disadvantaged group to underestimate how hurtful it is if people make silly jokes or advocate "profiling". For example, when Dutch media discuss the "blackfacing" tradition of the St Nicolas celebration, I find it difficult to relate to it, but then I try to imagine how I would feel if people were making fun of transsexuals in a similar way.

I prefer to talk about decency instead of political correctness. Yeah it is just semantics, I know. But to me, political correctness sounds like a taboo on discussing anything that is politically inconvenient, such as for example oppression of women in non-Western ethnic communities.

Also I think that "politically correct" is an oxymoron. Something can be factually correct, or it can be politically convenient.

I have long wished for the retirement of the phrase "political correctness" for reasons such as you state. I would add one more: There are real issues to be discussed, some of them difficult. Of course there are bigots out there, and of course there are those who have a rigid list of thoughts that cannot be expressed or considered. It is way to easy to dismiss an honest effort at solution by leveling charges of bigotry or of politically correct rigidity. Sometimes people are really trying to address a problem.


But Donald Trump is a special case in this, as he often is. Saying something along the lines of "I know it isn't politically correct but she is an ugly fat cow" is hardly a brave departure from political correctness. Ugly rudeness is ugly rudeness, it has nothing to do with being, or not being, politically correct.

Here is an example of what I mean about honest discussion. Apparently HC did not draw nearly as much of the Latino vote as she hoped and expected. Why not? I have a suggestion. I do not at all like being classified, in discussion of voting, as an old white male. Possibly Latinos do not like being lumped together either. As the campaign wore on (and "wore" is certainly the correct word) we kept hearing about how HC would do well in such and such a state because there is a large Latino population or a large Black population. As if this ethnic feature defined the person. Really, it is stereotyping. The Latino farm worker could well have different political views from the Latino businessman, and they might both differ from the Latino mathematician. Not that all farm workers or all businessmen or all mathematicians think alike either, but at least if people are grouped by occupation the members of that group have something in common other then ethnicity.

In my opinion the Dems placed far too much reliance on ethnic factors. I am an old white male. I am fine with acknowledging this. No problem. I take my senior discount at Burger King. And I laughed when the person behind the counter suggested that she might need to see an ID to verify this. I just resent it if someone thinks that "old white male" defines me.

[Al_U_Card]

kenberg, on 2016-November-14, 07:17, said:

I just resent it if someone thinks that "old white male" defines me.

It just describes us, Ken. Our life experience and the perspective that it has brought us, defines us. Only we can change that and no amount of incoherent ranting by immature egotists is sufficient to make a difference unless we so choose.

[olegru]

I found this article written by Russian emigrant like me. It pretty good reflects my opinion, at least one side of it. Article was in Russian, translation is mine, sorry, not very good.

Quote

American students ask for vacation to handle the upset caused by the results of the election. They need time to cry. It is a standard in USA now. But, notice those crying babies are the same people who wish you death, call you Hitler and so on only because you do not agree with them. The current problem of USA is the dictate of infantile, hysterical dictators who behave like the 3 year old. They never knew real problems; from the early childhood they got used to think that theirs opinion is the only correct one. This is the source of offended-culture.
If adult hears something unpleased, he just goes away, as long as nobody got hurt. Not our crybabies. They immediately start to dictate others how they should speak and how they should think. They think that because they are not pleased to see or hear something, they have right to teach others. All protests we see are the apogee of the culture of distractive toddlers behavior, unaccepting any opinion that different from own and disliking people who dare to say “No”
Americans, who are highly empathic nation, permitted that culture to exist, but it went out of control. Many people simply afraid to open their mouth, in order do no accidently offend somebody. America demonstrates what would happened if you allow children to rule. We became dictatorship State. It is not dictate based on any kind of social inequality, it is the dictate based on relationship of weak victim and strong man who is in fault by default. Yes, man is in fault because he let that situation arise. Now any attempts to change the situation cause hysterics and well known labels: "racist, bigot, chauvinist, misogynist, privileged". Those labels are not reflection of reality, but weapons. If you hear somebody (Trump for example) blamed by using of this words, don’t hurry to believe. It could be true, but much more probably that it is just methods to apply pressure to return the control.
The USA society of today is society ruled by sensitive offended dictators who does not allow the small deviations from “I wish that way”, and react like small children to get what they want by starting to cry, tear, curse and intimidate. The second part of society are “parents” who endure all of that, because they were told many times that any negatives, including the word “No” is a life-long trauma for child.
Trump is perceived as a big man who does not give a damn for all psychologists’ recommendations. His election is the hope for people to free themselves from the tyranny of forever offended.
People hope to return the liberty to think and to say whatever they want, not what is politically correct. The liberty to have own opinion. Liberty to joke way they like.
Try an experiment.
Say to people who support Clinton that you are Trump supporter. They will react strongly trying to put their ideology on you. In the best case, they will insult your opinion, more often they will label and insult you personally. They could even break relationship with you.
Now try to say people who support Trump that you are Clinton supporter and see the difference. With small exceptions, they will naturally accept the fact that friends could have different opinion and it is not the reason to change anything in relationship with them.
According my personal observation result of election was caused by the choice of adult people, who did not like both candidates. The kept their opinion in silence, but from two evil prefer Trump. At least he could tolerate existence of the different opinion. They are not proud by the chose they made, but they did not have better choice available. Enough is enough.

[cherdano]

These people oppressed by political correctness sure get offended very easily...

[barmar]

hrothgar, on 2016-November-14, 05:28, said:

With this said and done, I find it remarkable that the same people who rail against Political Correctness also get mortally offended when people label them with expressions like "Basket of Deplorables".

This week's "This American Life" interviewed a number of people with different post-election views, from both sides of the political spectrum. One of the Trump supporters kept on referring to themselves as "deplorables". They can defuse the word by adopting it as their own. It's kind of the same way that blacks can use the N-word to refer to each other, but we can't use it to refer to them.

[PassedOut]

olegru, on 2016-November-14, 08:33, said:

Now any attempts to change the situation cause hysterics and well known labels: "racist, bigot, chauvinist, misogynist, privileged".

No matter how well-founded those labels are, when someone tells it like it is the racists, bigots, chauvinists, and misogynists run crying to hide behind the skirts of daddy Trump: "Oh, please don't hurt my feelings! I need a safe space where no one tells it like it is!"

[kenberg]

barmar, on 2016-November-14, 09:42, said:

This week's "This American Life" interviewed a number of people with different post-election views, from both sides of the political spectrum. One of the Trump supporters kept on referring to themselves as "deplorables". They can defuse the word by adopting it as their own. It's kind of the same way that blacks can use the N-word to refer to each other, but we can't use it to refer to them.

Coping with deplorable traffic Saturday I heard a number of post-election interviews, I guess from All Things Considered. Different from what you are talking about, but interesting.

Anyway, "Basket of Deplorables" will probably make it into future textbooks as an example of ill chosen remarks. It is way too cute, and not at all devastating. I think that the N word is a different case entirely. If I were a Trump supporter and someone called me a deplorable I would laugh. If I were Black and someone called me an N, I would definitely not laugh. I realize that it sometimes is used by rappers and such, but even so it is far more loaded. I get your point, but still... .

[jonottawa]

olegru, on 2016-November-14, 08:33, said:

I found this article written by Russian emigrant like me. It pretty good reflects my opinion, at least one side of it. Article was in Russian, translation is mine, sorry, not very good.

Thank-you for that beautiful article. So viscerally true & so perfectly captures the political attitudes & climate. I have a jpg of a Facebook post that perfectly illustrates what you mean. It's here: https://pbs.twimg.co...JrIXUAA1vBe.jpg I'd just plug it in, but it's beyond offensive & NSFW. This is the crazy, violent, deranged attitude that the corrupt MSM has spawned among many Hillary supporters.

"The current problem of USA is the dictate of infantile, hysterical dictators who behave like the 3 year old." I think this image captures that sentiment well:



Though I hate how the word 'liberal' has been bastardized, since I am a liberal. Just like 'conservative' was bastardized by Dubya and his neo-con cronies.

https://en.wikipedia...ical_liberalism

Speaking of immigrants ...

[jonottawa]

kenberg, on 2016-November-14, 07:17, said:

Ugly rudeness is ugly rudeness, it has nothing to do with being, or not being, politically correct.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only 'ugly rudeness' I've seen in this thread is ugly rudeness by Hillary supporters against Trump supporters. I don't recall you condemning it.

What Hillary supporters SEEM to want is to be able to say anything they want, no matter how rude, or inflammatory, or even illegal, and then cry victim when someone is rude to them in return. (Women who say they want equality, but then play the gender card when someone insults them, for instance.) That's what Political Correctness has become. And Kirsten Powers has it right, that isn't acceptable.

[jonottawa]

hrothgar, on 2016-November-14, 05:22, said:

Once upon a time, she might have been a liberal, however, she had one of those road to Damascus type epiphanies and now self identifies as an evangelical Christian.

This was about the same time that she started associating with outlets like Regnery Publishing...

I wonder if sleeping with Anthony Weiner gave her that epiphany. Amazing what a debt our nation owes to that pervert.



http://www.thedailyb...lied-to-me.html

[PassedOut]

jonottawa, on 2016-November-14, 11:46, said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only 'ugly rudeness' I've seen in this thread is ugly rudeness by Hillary supporters against Trump supporters. I don't recall you condemning it.

What Hillary supporters SEEM to want is to be able to say anything they want, no matter how rude, or inflammatory, or even illegal, and then cry victim when someone is rude to them in return. (Women who say they want equality, but then play the gender card when someone insults them, for instance.) That's what Political Correctness has become. And Kirsten Powers has it right, that isn't acceptable.

Whine, whine, whine.

I'm neither a democrat nor a republican, and the all of the demands for politically correct speech make me roll my eyes in disgust. However, the liberal students admit that they only want to hear speech they consider to be politically correct, but you right-wingers -- who are as bad as those students in crying about speech that offends you -- refuse to admit it.

Looking back a couple pages on this thread I found a couple of quotes from Trump sycophants:

jonottawa, on 2016-November-13, 15:01, said:

Democrats are the party of media bias and collusion, of the constitution meaning whatever the popular culture of the day thinks it should mean, of a corrupt Justice Department, of open borders, of globalism, of rigged primaries, of election fraud, of immorality, of misandry, of hedonism, of degeneracy, of deadbeat dads, of prescription drug addiction, of corruption, graft, bribery & lobbyists calling the shots.

jonottawa, on 2016-November-13, 11:09, said:

The essence of it is that the regressive Left hates America (the constitution, rule of law, checks & balances, ethical journalism, morality, patriotism, liberty, meritocracy, freedom of speech, right to bear arms, don't tread on me.) And many Americans still love America. And so the regressive Left has decided in its infinite wisdom to replace Americans who love America with foreigners who hate America as much as they do.

You guys can dish it out, but not take it. (Reminds me of the libertarians.)

[jonottawa]

PassedOut, on 2016-November-14, 12:39, said:

Whine, whine, whine.

I'm neither a democrat nor a republican, and the all of the demands for politically correct speech make me roll my eyes in disgust. However, the liberal students admit that they only want to hear speech they consider to be politically correct, but you right-wingers -- who are as bad as those students in crying about speech that offends you -- refuse to admit it.

Looking back a couple pages on this thread I found a couple of quotes from Trump sycophants:




You guys can dish it out, but not take it. (Reminds me of the libertarians.)

You seem to be confusing me holding Mr. Berg to his own self-professed standards with how I feel about being verbally abused.

When I was verbally abused here, I laughed. I didn't flag the post. I'm used to being attacked; the mob is seldom right & so I tend to be on the other side.

But carry on with your fanciful narrative if it makes you feel good. I'm with Churchill on this one:



The full quote is even better and more germane:

"So we must beware of a tyranny of opinion which tries to make only one side of a question the one which may be heard. Everyone is in favour of free speech. Hardly a day passes without its being extolled, but some people’s idea of it is that they are free to say what they like, but if anyone says anything back, that is an outrage." ~ Winston Churchill October 13, 1943

[kenberg]

jonottawa, on 2016-November-14, 11:46, said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only 'ugly rudeness' I've seen in this thread is ugly rudeness by Hillary supporters against Trump supporters. I don't recall you condemning it.

What Hillary supporters SEEM to want is to be able to say anything they want, no matter how rude, or inflammatory, or even illegal, and then cry victim when someone is rude to them in return. (Women who say they want equality, but then play the gender card when someone insults them, for instance.) That's what Political Correctness has become. And Kirsten Powers has it right, that isn't acceptable.

"correct me if I am wrong" is rarely a good challenge to take up. I will keep it simple. I do not see you as a calm person interested in reasonable discussion. Since you are directly addressing me here, I am responding briefly. Barry moderates the thread, I think he does an excellent job. Even if I didn't think so, it isn't my job. I don't agree with everything said here, but I must find it interesting because I am still around. This is probably not an answer you find satisfactory, but it's the best I can do.

[billw55]

For what its worth, I saw jonottowa's post with the videos before it was removed. He quite thoroughly showed himself for what he is, and earned a permanent spot on my ignore list.