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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#21341 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2024-January-23, 16:06

 shyams, on 2024-January-22, 20:30, said:

I watch a lot of YouTube videos. When it comes to US politics, my viewing is mostly left-leaning (some might say "far-left") commentators.

On the left:
1. A recurring discussion theme is: "Who will be less harmful to the USA if reelected in 2024. Biden or Trump?". These left-leaning commentators have already decided that both are terrible --- so it's about weighing which of them will have caused lesser damage to USA and/or the world over the next 4 year term.
2. All lefties hate Nikki Haley. They think she is a supreme warmonger who will match Dubya & Cheney in terms of launching numerous war fronts.
3. Some think Biden is a terrible president (current term in office) while others think he is doing the best he could.

I also watch a few right-leaning people on YouTube. The recurring theme among these few videos is a belief that Trump will never be allowed to become President again. Some of these voices are convinced that even an assassination by "the deep state" may be used to prevent a Trump victory. Scary!


I might look for a bettor source of information.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#21342 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2024-January-23, 16:42

A few words about Houthis, foreign policy, and presidents.

First, until a few weeks ago, I had never heard of the Houthis. I understand they are attacking shipping in the Red Sea, I gather we must do something. Who would I wish were making the decisions as to just what to do? Well, not Trump. Definitely not Trump. Biden or Hayley? I think I'll go with Biden. But really, I know so very little about this that I have no idea what we should do.

My mind wandered back to 1956. I had finished high school in June, I would be starting at the University of Minnesota in the fall, I was working in the summer and also enjoying the summer. And then, in July I guess, trouble with the Suez Canal. I knew roughly the same amount about the Suez Crisis when I was 17 as I do now when I am 85 about the Houthis. But there is a difference. Dwight Eisenhower was president, and I never worried that he might not be up for the job. I'm not saying Ike did everything right, I am saying that I understood little if what was going on and having Ike make the choices sounded fine to me.


So here it is: If my choices, for dealing with Houthis or for many things, are Trump, Hayley, or Biden, I prefer Biden, I would hope for the best with Haley, the idea of Trump being in charge of anything terrifies me. But my confidence in Biden is, well, not all I would hope for.

So let's go Joe. Win it, and win it overwhelmingly. We gotta.


Ken
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#21343 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2024-January-23, 19:17

Ken,
The only thing you might be misunderstanding is the dynamics of this new MAGA dominated GOP.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#21344 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2024-January-23, 20:30

 Winstonm, on 2024-January-23, 19:17, said:

Ken,
The only thing you might be misunderstanding is the dynamics of this new MAGA dominated GOP.


Here's the essential problem.

Ken - you and I might disagree on how much we should care, and how we should weight the various factors and considerations, but we both agree that we should care about the lives of Palestinian and Yemeni noncombatant civilians.

The MAGA crowd believes that caring about the lives of Palestinian civilians is treason.

I don't know how to bridge that gap, other than praying that one day they'll read Luke 6:27 or Matthew 5:44 and take it seriously.
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#21345 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2024-January-23, 21:46

 Winstonm, on 2024-January-23, 16:06, said:

I might look for a bettor source of information.

So might I!
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#21346 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2024-January-23, 23:37

 kenberg, on 2024-January-23, 16:42, said:

A few words about Houthis, foreign policy, and presidents.

First, until a few weeks ago, I had never heard of the Houthis. I understand they are attacking shipping in the Red Sea, I gather we must do something. Who would I wish were making the decisions as to just what to do? Well, not Trump. Definitely not Trump. Biden or Hayley? I think I'll go with Biden. But really, I know so very little about this that I have no idea what we should do.

I don't mean to be critical or harsh about what you write, kenberg. Please excuse if anything below appears that way to you.

The reason US administrations (past & present) get away with anything they want on foreign policy is because your media rarely aims to inform you -- the people. As a non-American, the thing that impacts me (and the world population in general) most is your nation's foreign policy.

In this domain, I am sorry to burst the bubble of most posters here but Trump (during his first term) was significantly better than Biden in his current term. I expect some visceral reactions from the "vote Blue no matter who" Democrats here but the facts will support my assertion that Trump was (and probably will be, if he gets a second term) BETTER than Biden.

The US population, in general, seems to love it when your administration shows some belligerence on the world stage. But the world population (based on this one person's humble analysis) would love to see a peace-promoting US administration.
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#21347 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2024-January-24, 06:22

 shyams, on 2024-January-23, 23:37, said:

The reason US administrations (past & present) get away with anything they want on foreign policy is because your media rarely aims to inform you -- the people. As a non-American, the thing that impacts me (and the world population in general) most is your nation's foreign policy.

In this domain, I am sorry to burst the bubble of most posters here but Trump (during his first term) was significantly better than Biden in his current term.administration.


Yeah! Ripping up that Iranian nuclear deal! That worked out brilliantly!

And who can forget the genius of the Abraham Accords! Cutting the Palestinians out of the peace process has yielded some incredible results.

And appeasing Russia! Wow! That turned out brilliantly

And, of course, COVID response. Another victory for TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP!!!
Alderaan delenda est
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#21348 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2024-January-24, 06:41

 hrothgar, on 2024-January-24, 06:22, said:

Yeah! Ripping up that Iranian nuclear deal! That worked out brilliantly!

And who can forget the genius of the Abraham Accords! Cutting the Palestinians out of the peace process has yielded some incredible results.

And appeasing Russia! Wow! That turned out brilliantly

And, of course, COVID response. Another victory for TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP!!!

Why does it annoy you so much?

Worried that your grate President is going to lose to a clown??

Edit: Worried is a wrong word when it comes to hrothgar. Fuming, apoplectic, "frothing in the mouth" or something similar may have been a better guess.

This post has been edited by shyams: 2024-January-24, 06:42

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#21349 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2024-January-24, 08:52

 shyams, on 2024-January-24, 06:41, said:

Why does it annoy you so much?.



At the most basic level, what I find annoying is you
You're an ignorant *****wit with strong opinions...

Your claims with respect to Trump v Biden are ridiculous and, from what I can see of foreign opinion polls, not particularly popular
Alderaan delenda est
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#21350 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2024-January-24, 10:37

 shyams, on 2024-January-23, 23:37, said:

I don't mean to be critical or harsh about what you write, kenberg. Please excuse if anything below appears that way to you.

The reason US administrations (past & present) get away with anything they want on foreign policy is because your media rarely aims to inform you -- the people. As a non-American, the thing that impacts me (and the world population in general) most is your nation's foreign policy.

In this domain, I am sorry to burst the bubble of most posters here but Trump (during his first term) was significantly better than Biden in his current term. I expect some visceral reactions from the "vote Blue no matter who" Democrats here but the facts will support my assertion that Trump was (and probably will be, if he gets a second term) BETTER than Biden.

The US population, in general, seems to love it when your administration shows some belligerence on the world stage. But the world population (based on this one person's humble analysis) would love to see a peace-promoting US administration.


I'm fine with you seeing things differently, just as I am fine with Winston suggesting I might be misunderstanding some things. Part of my thinking is that we voters have to cast a vote even if we do not fully understand foreign policy. Or economic policy. Or educational policy. A story, perhaps weird, I have told before may illustrate this. The North Koreans crossed the 38th parallel when I was 11. That was in June but in the fall my elementary school teacher was speaking of the Red Menace. My mother explained that all wars are about oil. I countered that I did not think there was any oil in Korea. She replied that if they are fighting there then there is oil there. Growing up, my my mother had a year or so of high school before she ran away from home. As an adult she read the funnies and her horoscope in the morning paper. But she voted. Btw, she had a point. Maybe there was no oil, or not an appreciable amount of oil, in Korea but wars often do have a strong connection with economics so if we just rephrase her argument it's not crazy.

In my post I mentioned the Suez crisis of 1956. As I recall, I have not looked it up but I am pretty confident, both Britain and France were seriously upset by the US not joining them in military action against. Egypt. Earlier, in 1954, France was upset that we did not help them in their fight to control Indochina. And then there are the world wars, I and II. In 1916 Wilson ran for re-election on the slogan "He kept us out of war". For WWII, Germany invaded Poland in 1939, France and many other places in 1940, we entered the war in December of 1941. Actually, we declared war against Japan, but treaties meant that we would then be at war against Germany and Italy as well. I'm not claiming the USA is just a peace-loving nation, I am not that naive, but I would say that over the years the criticism has been sometimes one way, sometimes the other. As to " US population, in general, seems to love it when your administration shows some belligerence ", well, not me. And no most people I know.

Back to the Houthis. I see you are from London. I gather that the UK and the USA are working together on what to do about the attacks in the Red Sea. I am sure they will not be asking me for advice and I am fine with that. I wish I had more confidence than I have that our leaders can find the right approach.



Added: About Trump. I, like many, am not prepared to go into great detail. But from the beginning, from before he was a candidate in 2016, I saw him as someone I would never want around. I would not believe what he said, I would not trust him with my wallet, I would not work for him, not in politics not in business, and so on. I could put some effort into a more logically persuasive argument, but Trump emphasises his own gut responses and my gut response to him is to stay away.
Ken
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#21351 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2024-January-24, 11:32

 shyams, on 2024-January-24, 06:41, said:


Worried that your grate President is going to lose to a clown??



And yes, anyone with half a brain is concerned that Biden might lose to Trump.
Hillary Clinton has orders of magnitude more qualified than Trump
The country went with a clown

Regretfully, the Republicans currently have a very efficient distribution of voters for the national cycle. They can lose the popular vote by millions of votes and we'd once again end up with a clown. A sociopathic clown with a flamethrower.

The consequences for American democracy and the world would be profound.
Alderaan delenda est
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#21352 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2024-January-24, 11:47

The only people I see who favor Trump are those who are fine with the collapse or destruction of liberal democracy on a worldwide basis, with each Trump supporter having his own agenda he wants Trump to force on the world.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#21353 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2024-January-24, 12:29

 hrothgar, on 2024-January-24, 08:52, said:

At the most basic level, what I find annoying is you
You're an ignorant *****wit with strong opinions...

Your claims with respect to Trump v Biden are ridiculous and, from what I can see of foreign opinion polls, not particularly popular

Oh no, did I hurt your feewings?? Did I?
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#21354 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2024-January-24, 12:35

 shyams, on 2024-January-24, 12:29, said:

Oh no, did I hurt your feewings?? Did I?


Hurt my feelings? Hardly...

However, I do find find pointing out rank stupidity in the likes you rather cathartic...
Alderaan delenda est
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#21355 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2024-January-26, 17:46

Can anyone explain the choices available to the American people

I'm not being disrespectful. We all have our own systems of democracy

Just curious
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#21356 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2024-January-27, 08:03

 thepossum, on 2024-January-26, 17:46, said:

Can anyone explain the choices available to the American people

I'm not being disrespectful. We all have our own systems of democracy

Just curious


Everyone can explain and no one can explain if you see what I mean. I am hardly the only one with no idea what can be done. I'll vote for Biden of course, but more is needed.
Ken
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#21357 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2024-January-27, 12:44

 thepossum, on 2024-January-26, 17:46, said:

Can anyone explain the choices available to the American people

I'm not being disrespectful. We all have our own systems of democracy

Just curious


The 3 choices are: 1) Accept the results of elections 2) expatriate 3) Commit insurrection
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#21358 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2024-January-27, 20:35

Harvard Law School hosts a discussion on whether or not the Prez is an officer.
Non legit hoc
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#21359 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2024-January-28, 09:45

 pilowsky, on 2024-January-27, 20:35, said:



Thanks, even though I am far from sure I can sit through it all. I think legal arguments are important but they also can drive me nuts. Too early on a Sunday morning, but maybe later. I thank you and I will give it a try.
Ken
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#21360 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2024-January-30, 21:40

 Winstonm, on 2024-January-27, 12:44, said:

The 3 choices are: 1) Accept the results of elections 2) expatriate 3) Commit insurrection


Lol

I was getting more at the choices of candidates lol
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