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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#20501 User is offline   PassedOut 

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Posted 2022-October-04, 09:54

View PostGilithin, on 2022-October-04, 08:21, said:

I can't imagine a country that vote for someone who openly says he will grab unwilling women by their pussies to their highest political office. And yet here we are. Nothing GOP supporters do will shock me any more, including accepting a fascist takeover of the country "for the greater good". Anyone who thinks there is a significant different between Germans, Italians and Americans on this is basically delusional.

I certainly never imagined before 2016 that enough people here in the US could vote for a candidate for president as unsuitable for leadership as Donald Trump as actually did vote for him. And even after he was soundly beaten in 2020 after one hopeless term in office, it was sobering to see how many folks could still vote for him.

Now his naked appeals to the thuggish fascists who support him might actually succeed in restoring him to the office that he could never regain legitimately. It's important for every decent person here to work to prevent that from happening. Putin and Trump working together again would make our world a very ugly place.
The growth of wisdom may be gauged exactly by the diminution of ill temper. — Friedrich Nietzsche
The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists — that is why they invented hell. — Bertrand Russell
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#20502 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2022-October-04, 13:11

View PostPassedOut, on 2022-October-04, 09:54, said:

I certainly never imagined before 2016 that enough people here in the US could vote for a candidate for president as unsuitable for leadership as Donald Trump as actually did vote for him. And even after he was soundly beaten in 2020 after one hopeless term in office, it was sobering to see how many folks could still vote for him.

Now his naked appeals to the thuggish fascists who support him might actually succeed in restoring him to the office that he could never regain legitimately. It's important for every decent person here to work to prevent that from happening. Putin and Trump working together again would make our world a very ugly place.


Concerning the sensation after Trump won in 2016, I, like you, first felt disheartened to see that he could be elected in the first place - but when he received 60 million votes after 4 years, the feeling progressed into disillusionment to downright depression. And it has yet to right itself.


One would think a country could made progress over 100 years, but looking now is like a mirrored image of the Klan marches of the 20's, 20,000 strong, only now they walk around in red hats and MAGA buttons - 60 million of them.

Maybe it is time to cast this country aside and start over. They can have Texas and Florida. We'll take the rest.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#20503 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2022-October-04, 13:17

View Posty66, on 2022-September-30, 08:04, said:

Jane Mayer acknowledges the failure of the Press to "get the message across" in a discussion with the authors of "The DIVIDER", Peter Baker and Susan Glasser, at the Politics & Prose bookstore in DC last night. When asked if more candor from John Kelly and other enablers would have made a difference, Baker said "No. I think everybody's looking for this silver bullet that's going to suddenly wake up everybody who likes Trump and say 'Oh my gosh he's not what I thought he was' and the truth is they've had multiple opportunities if they're open to that conversation and they're not".


The press is constantly being worked by Trump to get free advertising for his "brand". Everywhere you turn it's Trump, Trump,, Trump.
The solution is simple and it's like an urban legend in reverse; To rid ourselves of this monster all we have to do is stop saying his name.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#20504 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2022-October-04, 13:22

View PostGilithin, on 2022-October-04, 08:21, said:

I can't imagine a country that vote for someone who openly says he will grab unwilling women by their pussies to their highest political office. And yet here we are. Nothing GOP supporters do will shock me any more, including accepting a fascist takeover of the country "for the greater good". Anyone who thinks there is a significant different between Germans, Italians and Americans on this is basically delusional.


Wholeheartedly agree.

When we see the videos of the huge throngs of Germans in essence worshipping the speeches of Adolf Hitler we should notice that the crowd is made of ordinary people, the butchers, shopkeepers, teachers, principals, farmers, and others, and what we should say is not, why did they fall for it, but, that crowd is us.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#20505 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2022-October-04, 13:24

Hunter S. Thompson takes on Donald Trump Fear and Loathing style:

We were a thousand miles out of D.C., on the edge of Mar-a-Lago, when the Adderall kicked in.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#20506 User is offline   Chas_P 

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Posted 2022-October-04, 18:49

View Postbarmar, on 2022-October-03, 15:57, said:

Did I really say that in this thread?

Yes you did. It was a one-liner. I have looked back for it and can't find it, so I assume you deleted it. Nonetheless I thought it was a worthwhile question. Why have we deteriorated into a society who judges everyone based on their skin color or what hangs (or doesn't hang) between their legs. The politicians, on both sides of the aisle, have worked at that. "Divide and conquer". It's a sad state of affairs.
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#20507 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2022-October-04, 20:35

View PostChas_P, on 2022-September-29, 17:48, said:

Why is everything now all about race and gender?

So is this an implicit criticism of Trump's racist "Coco Chow" 'tweet'? Reducing a former minister to her skin colour complete with racist slur would seem to fall under this general umbrella.
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#20508 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2022-October-05, 00:26

The US navy has just put Gerald Ford out to water. A nearby explosion (registering 3.9 on the Richter scale) left the slow-moving ponderous vessel unfazed.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek; les règles sont le jeu même.
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#20509 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2022-October-05, 03:21

View PostWinstonm, on 2022-October-04, 13:11, said:

Maybe it is time to cast this country aside and start over. They can have Texas and Florida. We'll take the rest.

Well, also Mississippi, Alabama, South Carolina, Oklahoma (sorry about that :) ), Wyoming, Idaho, North and South Dakota, the rest of the confederate states, etc.

As I've previously advocated for, the secession of the confederates should be done on a county by county basis, not by states. In just about every state except Hawaii (all Democratic) and Oklahoma (all QOP)(more condolences) there are counties that voted for each party. That way, you usually won't have to move to a different state to be in your preferred country. Of course, many of the functions of the state will become obsolete with counties belonging to different countries, so there will likely be loose regional affiliations to govern strictly regional problems.
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#20510 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2022-October-05, 04:43

Or just get rid of the Senate and introduce compulsory preferential voting.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek; les règles sont le jeu même.
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#20511 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2022-October-05, 08:26

View Postjohnu, on 2022-October-05, 03:21, said:

Well, also Mississippi, Alabama, South Carolina, Oklahoma (sorry about that :) ), Wyoming, Idaho, North and South Dakota, the rest of the confederate states, etc.

As I've previously advocated for, the secession of the confederates should be done on a county by county basis, not by states. In just about every state except Hawaii (all Democratic) and Oklahoma (all QOP)(more condolences) there are counties that voted for each party. That way, you usually won't have to move to a different state to be in your preferred country. Of course, many of the functions of the state will become obsolete with counties belonging to different countries, so there will likely be loose regional affiliations to govern strictly regional problems.




Twenty years or so back I was living in Bowie Maryland and there was a movement for a very local secession, just the city itself. Some of the advocates seemed to actually believe in what they were saying, they held meetings and rallies. At one point they thought we could declare ourselves to be a suburb of Toronto. Yes, that Toronto, the one that's in Canada. For some reason, this never came to pass.

More practically speaking, when the South seceded it was because they didn't like what the North was doing, they did not suggest that the North should secede. Same with the colonies' secession from British rule. From that, it would appear that if we are unhappy with the current conservative trends, it would have to be us, not them, who would secede. Why should they do so if they can gain control?

Anyway, I doubt very much that anyone will be seceding. I doubt that there will be either a Flexit or a Texit, and I oppose a Marexit, so we are all stuck with each other.
Ken
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#20512 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2022-October-05, 09:29

View Postkenberg, on 2022-October-05, 08:26, said:

Twenty years or so back I was living in Bowie Maryland and there was a movement for a very local secession, just the city itself. Some of the advocates seemed to actually believe in what they were saying, they held meetings and rallies. At one point they thought we could declare ourselves to be a suburb of Toronto. Yes, that Toronto, the one that's in Canada. For some reason, this never came to pass.

More practically speaking, when the South seceded it was because they didn't like what the North was doing, they did not suggest that the North should secede. Same with the colonies' secession from British rule. From that, it would appear that if we are unhappy with the current conservative trends, it would have to be us, not them, who would secede. Why should they do so if they can gain control?

Anyway, I doubt very much that anyone will be seceding. I doubt that there will be either a Flexit or a Texit, and I oppose a Marexit, so we are all stuck with each other.

USIT?
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#20513 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2022-October-05, 14:04

View Postkenberg, on 2022-October-05, 08:26, said:

More practically speaking, when the South seceded it was because they didn't like what the North was doing, they did not suggest that the North should secede. Same with the colonies' secession from British rule. From that, it would appear that if we are unhappy with the current conservative trends, it would have to be us, not them, who would secede. Why should they do so if they can gain control?

Voting demographics favor Democrats in the long run as younger, multi-racial generations start to replace the aging, white racist QOP in many states. Even today, it seems unlikely that the QOP will ever win the popular vote again in a presidential race, and only outrageous gerrymandering keeps them in control in many parts of the the country.

If you've followed the news, many confederate legislatures and influencers in different confederate states have voiced their support for seceding from the US. I say let them go on their way.

Separating the US into 2 countries is an "experiment" worth trying on the IMO reasonable assumption that the parts are greater than the sum when a substantial part of the country is rowing in the opposite direction as hard and fast as they can. I see the US as a Yugoslavia, a USSR, a Czechoslovakia, a country forced together in the past that never managed to integrate into a common country.
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#20514 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2022-October-05, 15:56

Well in the spirit of the Liberian experiment, perhaps the "irreplaceables" could combine their wealth and purchase a parcel of land in Patagonia.
Jonestown redux.
And why not? Self-determination for every one of them.
non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek; les règles sont le jeu même.
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#20515 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2022-October-05, 18:10

View Postjohnu, on 2022-October-05, 03:21, said:


As I've previously advocated for, the secession of the confederates should be done on a county by county basis, not by states.



Not fine-grained enough.

My state senator, whose district is basically my county, was elected with 51% of the vote.

He got less than 20% of the vote outside of the county seat and more than 70% in the county seat. (Yes, I looked at the precinct-by-precinct returns.)
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#20516 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2022-October-05, 19:35

View Postjohnu, on 2022-October-05, 14:04, said:

Voting demographics favor Democrats in the long run as younger, multi-racial generations start to replace the aging, white racist QOP in many states. Even today, it seems unlikely that the QOP will ever win the popular vote again in a presidential race, and only outrageous gerrymandering keeps them in control in many parts of the the country.

If you've followed the news, many confederate legislatures and influencers in different confederate states have voiced their support for seceding from the US. I say let them go on their way.

Separating the US into 2 countries is an "experiment" worth trying on the IMO reasonable assumption that the parts are greater than the sum when a substantial part of the country is rowing in the opposite direction as hard and fast as they can. I see the US as a Yugoslavia, a USSR, a Czechoslovakia, a country forced together in the past that never managed to integrate into a common country.




I perhaps grant that a Texas secession or a Florida secession is not quite as totally outright nuts as was the Bowie secession movement that I spoke of, but still, it is not going to happen. Politicians like to see their names in the news. I was thinking, or at least hoping, you were joking about the Dakotas seceding. Or some of the counties seceding. As mentioned, some of the secessionists in Bowie seemed totally committed (and probably should have been committed, but in a different sense). So it gets tough to see just what is intended seriously. I have a grandson living in Austin. I will not be asking him his views on a Texas secession. He might start worrying about the mental health of his grandfather.

People move, some move to a different country. That happens. States will not be seceding. Ok, I could be wrong. But I strongly believe, and hope, that I am right.

I do agree that the country right now is in a horrible mess, the worst mess of my lifetime. I don't know the way out of it. That's as far as I am going on this.
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#20517 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2022-October-06, 06:02

View Postkenberg, on 2022-October-05, 19:35, said:

I do agree that the country right now is in a horrible mess, the worst mess of my lifetime.

The most danger for sure, both in terms of commercial and financial world dominance and in terms of its internal democracy. But I am not entirely sure it is right to say that the country is in more of a mess now than when 15% of the population were denied their voting rights and generally treated as second class citizens.
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#20518 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2022-October-06, 07:31

View PostGilithin, on 2022-October-06, 06:02, said:

The most danger for sure, both in terms of commercial and financial world dominance and in terms of its internal democracy. But I am not entirely sure it is right to say that the country is in more of a mess now than when 15% of the population were denied their voting rights and generally treated as second class citizens.


Yes, a good point. It was a different sort of mess but definitely a serious mess. It was a mess that a person could see at least some way to address. Pass laws that prohibited tests for voting that were clearly discriminatory, pass laws that said a person gets to sit at any open seat on a bus, pass laws that said if you serve meals you serve them to anyone that can pay for them and so on. Some of this is easier said than done. An upscale restaurant perhaps can have a dress code that allows them to not seat a person that comes in wearing a T-shirt, shorts and sandals. Education has been particularly difficult. So yes, there were and are problems. But this is the first time in my life that I feel the country has fundamental problems that I have no idea what we can do to solve.

As I said, I don't think secession by us (Maryland where I live or Minnesota where I grew up) or "them" (Texas or Florida as examples) is the solution and I strongly doubt it will ever happen anyway. But what to do? I am at a loss. Here in Maryland, I would like to say we should all listen to and respect other opinions. But Cox, the Republican candidate for governor thinks, or says he thinks, the 2020 election was stolen plus a lot of other stuff that marks him as a crazed zealot. I am truly sorry that he is the R candidate (and repulsed by the role the Dems played in helping him become the R candidate). I voted for Hogan, our current R governor, but Cox? At the risk of making a bad pun, only a sucker would vote for him.

So this mess is different, at least for me. And yep, I acknowledge that being white probably affects my views on which messes are worse than others. Be that as it might be, we are in one hell of a mess. I'll put aside which mess might have been worse, we are in one hell of a mess.

And oh, the bombing of Pearl Harbor was a little before my third birthday, and so the invasion of Poland was a little before my first birthday, and this all led to a mess of a very different sort. But the war ended before my seventh birthday so no one expected me to have an opinion about all of that.
Ken
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#20519 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2022-October-06, 08:06

One thing that will help is for more people to realize that secession talk and other forms of asininity are being hyped because they are useful for stoking the cash raising machine to which both parties are addicted.
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#20520 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2022-October-06, 08:55

Here is another issue. I quote from post 20513:

"Voting demographics favor Democrats in the long run as younger, multi-racial generations start to replace the aging, white racist QOP in many states. "


This lumps "aging, white" together with "racist QOP". Progressives might want to think about this. If I and other aging white people get the idea that the progressive view includes enthusiasm for our demise, that could account for some voters making the choices that they do. It doesn't account for all choices, but perhaps it accounts for enough choices to swing an election.


Sure, the rebuttal can be that we must take "aging, white racist QOP" as a whole. But some rhetoric needlessly alienates natural allies. I think it is now widely understood that "De-fund the police" was a slogan of world-class stupidity. Immediately the explanations came out that this did not mean we should de-fund the police. The recent ploy of Dems to help nutjob Republicans such as Maryland's Cox win the primary really pi**es a lot of us off, and it suggests the Dems feel that they can't win against a sensible R opponent. Among other objections to this ploy, it might backfire. Again, it's idiotic.


There are quite a few of us who long for a return to sanity on all sides. We don't want anyone seceding. One hope among many.
Ken
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