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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#18321 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-June-07, 19:45

View PostGilithin, on 2021-June-07, 19:14, said:

This should be an easy yes for anyone born in a developed country.


I agree. And I'll use that to relate to Winston's " I don't know for sure if this country would be my first choice".


I did not pose the Q as "first choice", just as "lucky to have been born in the US". I like Canada. I like the UK. I like France. So it's not a matter of first choice.


The last few years the US have been a mess. But if we could say "All in all, I feel I was lucky to have been born here" then maybe we can get together and clean some things up.

And I am still interested in whether there has ever been a poll that asks that nice simple question. We appreciate our good fortune, and we try to pass it on. And fix some cracks.

I know I found mushy. It's ok.

PS. Good to hear from someone other than the usual suspects.
Ken
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#18322 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-June-07, 20:36

View Postkenberg, on 2021-June-07, 19:45, said:

I agree. And I'll use that to relate to Winston's " I don't know for sure if this country would be my first choice".


I did not pose the Q as "first choice", just as "lucky to have been born in the US". I like Canada. I like the UK. I like France. So it's not a matter of first choice.


The last few years the US have been a mess. But if we could say "All in all, I feel I was lucky to have been born here" then maybe we can get together and clean some things up.

And I am still interested in whether there has ever been a poll that asks that nice simple question. We appreciate our good fortune, and we try to pass it on. And fix some cracks.

I know I found mushy. It's ok.

PS. Good to hear from someone other than the usual suspects.

I must be weird as I don’t view luck as having anything to do with it. My parents were both Americans so it would have been odd not to have been born and reared here, though not impossible. I think the question you are trying to get to is: do you think you would be better off had you been born a citizen of another country. All I can say is I don’t think so but how can you rule out that possibility?
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#18323 User is offline   Chas_P 

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Posted 2021-June-08, 04:42

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-June-07, 18:05, said:

If the events of the past five years prove anything at all it's that polls are of little value.

According to RCP poll averages 52.7% approve of the job Biden's doing, but only 40.8% say the country in headed in the right direction. So does that mean that a slim majority approve of Biden leading the country down the wrong track?

#18324 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2021-June-08, 05:03

View PostChas_P, on 2021-June-08, 04:42, said:

According to RCP poll averages 52.7% approve of the job Biden's doing, but only 40.8% say the country in headed in the right direction. So does that mean that a slim majority approve of Biden leading the country down the wrong track?


A more plausible interpretation is that people recognize that Biden doesn't not have the ability to bend the country to his whim.

There is strong bipartisan agreement about all sorts of major policies (when you are measuring the opinions of voters)
This does not mean that "the county's" political system is able to act upon them.
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#18325 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-June-08, 05:23

External polls are not the ones that politicians pay any attention to.
This is why the polling that we got to see in 2016 was hopelessly wrong and not much better last year.

They have their own internal polling mechanisms that account for things like voting intention in an individual household.
It's harder in America where people are not required to vote (as they are in Australia).
Now that the Republicans at the state level are making it harder to vote things will only get worse.


With people like Manchin in the Senate, the problem is compounded.


Much of the polling data is no doubt stored in the Cloud - let's hope the forces of good are using Akamai and not Fastly tonight.
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#18326 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-June-08, 06:42

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-June-08, 05:23, said:

External polls are not the ones that politicians pay any attention to.
This is why the polling that we got to see in 2016 was hopelessly wrong and not much better last year.

They have their own internal polling mechanisms that account for things like voting intention in an individual household.
It's harder in America where people are not required to vote (as they are in Australia).
Now that the Republicans at the state level are making it harder to vote things will only get worse.


With people like Manchin in the Senate, the problem is compounded.


Much of the polling data is no doubt stored in the Cloud - let's hope the forces of good are using Akamai and not Fastly tonight.

Which is why it is so problematic that Manafort passed internal polling data to a Russian intelligence operative.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#18327 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2021-June-08, 06:44

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-June-08, 05:23, said:


Much of the polling data is no doubt stored in the Cloud - let's hope the forces of good are using Akamai and not Fastly tonight.


I would be very surprised if the outage that Fastly experienced impacted long term storage / caching.

You really don't want the stuff that is being stored at your origin to have a dependency on the behaviour of the CDN.
(Says the guy who works at Akamai)
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#18328 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-June-08, 06:48

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-June-07, 20:36, said:

I must be weird as I don't view luck as having anything to do with it. My parents were both Americans so it would have been odd not to have been born and reared here, though not impossible. I think the question you are trying to get to is: do you think you would be better off had you been born a citizen of another country. All I can say is I don't think so but how can you rule out that possibility?


I really think it is a simple question. And, as always, I see value in simplicity. I guess you could say I am simple-minded. And proud of it.
I regard myself as lucky to have been born in 1939 rather than 1439. Of course I could not have been born in 1439 because my mother got pregnant in 1938, Still, I think people know what I mean.

As far as comparisons go, I am not comparing life in the US with, say, life in France. Although if we were to compare it with life in France I would say my life in the US from 1940 through 1945 was probably better than life was for many in France at that time. That's not the comparison I am looking at when I feel lucky. I grew up making great use of a bicycle and skates, I had a free education for elementary school and high school, I made good use of the free public library, College wasn't free but there was a scholarship and I got paid decently, not great but decently, for working. Of course I understand that this is not unique to the US. But in many places and in many times, this all would seem like a dream. So I feel lucky. Even if my lucky birth was pre-determined by the fact that my mother was living in Minnesota.

Bad luck that I was not born into wealth? A minor detail, no importance at all.
Ken
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#18329 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-June-08, 07:14

View Postkenberg, on 2021-June-08, 06:48, said:

I really think it is a simple question. And, as always, I see value in simplicity. I guess you could say I am simple-minded. And proud of it.
I regard myself as lucky to have been born in 1939 rather than 1439. Of course I could not have been born in 1439 because my mother got pregnant in 1938, Still, I think people know what I mean.

As far as comparisons go, I am not comparing life in the US with, say, life in France. Although if we were to compare it with life in France I would say my life in the US from 1940 through 1945 was probably better in the US than life was for many in France at that time. That's not the comparison I am looking at when I feel lucky. I grew up making great use of a bicycle and skates, I had a free education for elementary school and high school, I made good use of the free public library, College wasn't free but there was a scholarship and I got paid decently, not great but decently, for working. Of course I understand that this is not unique to the US. But in many places and in many times, this all would all seem like a dream. So I feel lucky. Even if my lucky birth was pre-determined by the fact that my mother was living in Minnesota.

Bad luck that I was not born into wealth? A minor detail, no importance at all.

I admire simplicity of thought - it is not something I do easily. I start by wondering what luck and lucky mean . Perhaps that is due to parents involved in teaching kids to read who often brought that work home to their own kids. Words to me are similar I think as numbers are to you: precision is critical to the meaning. I have spent many years learning that I do not have to act the same way I feel. so how I feel about something is irrelevant.

So how can I know that being born Australian or Canadien isn’t better without that experience to compare? How I feel really doesn’t matter, does it?

Emotional voters elected Trump. Perhaps we could do better with less emotion and more precision of thought.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#18330 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-June-08, 08:39

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-June-08, 07:14, said:

I admire simplicity of thought - it is not something I do easily. I start by wondering what luck and lucky mean . Perhaps that is due to parents involved in teaching kids to read who often brought that work home to their own kids. Words to me are similar I think as numbers are to you: precision is critical to the meaning. I have spent many years learning that I do not have to act the same way I feel. so how I feel about something is irrelevant.

So how can I know that being born Australian or Canadien isn't better without that experience to compare? How I feel really doesn't matter, does it?

Emotional voters elected Trump. Perhaps we could do better with less emotion and more precision of thought.


Of course it matters how people feel. Firstly it matters to the person who is doing the feeling, but also how people feel affects how they act.

In geometry, the parallel postulate is logically connected to the angle sum of a triangle. I have no emotional attachment to either the parallel postulate or the angle sum of a triangle. Precise thought is very useful for geometry. Of course clear thought is useful always, but when we move from geometry to life, how we feel matters. That will not change, and I don't think that I would want it to change.

Logic is good. It is also not the whole story. Never has been.

I think we can list your response to my poll Q as "declined to answer".

And right, polls are definitely limited. Maybe this Q illustrates the limitation.
Ken
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#18331 User is online   awm 

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Posted 2021-June-08, 14:43

There are certainly many countries around the world whose citizens are worse off than those of the US. I’m glad to have grown up in the US rather than in Honduras or Guatemala or Nigeria… or many other places. It’s clear that citizens of those places often feel the same because many of them are desperate to leave!

But with that said, there are places I’d rather be from than the US; for example many Scandinavian countries or Switzerland or Canada or the Netherlands. It does seem that in modern times the US has fallen down the list a bit (for example kids now in Germany are better off than Americans in many ways but this was not true when I was born in the 1970s and definitely not true when Ken was born in the 1930s!)

I think the concern is not that the US is terrible (it’s not) or that other places are better (a few are, most are not) but rather that things seem to be getting worse in the US.

For example, the recent wave of anti-Semitic violence in the States is again reaffirming my choice to move to Switzerland, and despite the election of a Democratic government a quarter of the country seems consumed by conspiracy theories and voting rights/democracy is being further restricted in many states with certain Democratic senators refusing to take action to correct it. Much of Biden’s agenda is DOA in the Senate and the justice department is still defending Trump administration abuses.

And of course a third of the country is refusing to vaccinate.
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#18332 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-June-08, 15:10

I think Adam hits on the truly important theme: the U.S. is in decline. Whether that is the beginning of the end or only a relapse prior to recovery is dependent on new generations. I am not nearly so upbeat as Biden claims to be; but I hope that I should be.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#18333 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-June-08, 15:35

View Postawm, on 2021-June-08, 14:43, said:

And of course a third of the country is refusing to vaccinate.


Of course, in many of the Confederate States that's 2/3 of the population.
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#18334 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2021-June-08, 18:17

Why the GOP Just Got Blown Out in a Congressional Race

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Next year’s gubernatorial election represents a key opportunity for Republicans to prove that they can still compete statewide [in New Mexico]. But the special election result last week became yet another data point for Republicans in the state who think their party is heading in the wrong direction. “This is a district that has definitely changed, but this was embarrassing. It’s embarrassing for Mark. Who’s going to run now? Who are you going to get to step up?”

Who you gonna call?
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#18335 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-June-08, 21:14

Why wouldn't you get vaccinated? It's a real shot in the arm.
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#18336 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-June-08, 22:50

View Posty66, on 2021-June-08, 18:17, said:



Not that big a deal IMO. Biden won that district by 23% in 2020, Stansbury won by 24%. Statistically it's not significant in a heavily blue district. Just as it wouldn't have been significant if a Republican had easily won in a heavily red district.
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#18337 User is online   awm 

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Posted 2021-June-09, 06:54

View Postjohnu, on 2021-June-08, 22:50, said:

Not that big a deal IMO. Biden won that district by 23% in 2020, Stansbury won by 24%. Statistically it's not significant in a heavily blue district. Just as it wouldn't have been significant if a Republican had easily won in a heavily red district.


The relevance is that special elections like this often favor the “out of power” party significantly; for example special elections from 2017-2018 had a large Democratic swing which carried over into the 2018 midterms. This basically happens because special elections are low turnout affairs and the out if power party is angry about losing the presidency and more enthusiastic to turn out.

The fact that Democrats won this by roughly the same margin they won in 2020 suggests that the midterms might go better for them in 2022 than usual for the president’s party. Of course there are many other factors (NM Republican Party seems disfunctional, not a lot of outside spending to prop up either candidate) so it may not be that meaningful.

But there’s reason to think that Dems were fired up in 2017-2018 because they hate Trump. Republicans are upset now because “the election was stolen” but this is not so good a motivator for them to vote! It’s hard to drum up hatred for the (elderly, white, male, soft-spoken) Joe Biden.
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#18338 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2021-June-09, 07:17

View Postawm, on 2021-June-08, 14:43, said:

There are certainly many countries around the world whose citizens are worse off than those of the US. I’m glad to have grown up in the US rather than in Honduras or Guatemala or Nigeria… or many other places. It’s clear that citizens of those places often feel the same because many of them are desperate to leave!

But with that said, there are places I’d rather be from than the US; for example many Scandinavian countries or Switzerland or Canada or the Netherlands. It does seem that in modern times the US has fallen down the list a bit (for example kids now in Germany are better off than Americans in many ways but this was not true when I was born in the 1970s and definitely not true when Ken was born in the 1930s!)

I think the concern is not that the US is terrible (it’s not) or that other places are better (a few are, most are not) but rather that things seem to be getting worse in the US.

For example, the recent wave of anti-Semitic violence in the States is again reaffirming my choice to move to Switzerland, and despite the election of a Democratic government a quarter of the country seems consumed by conspiracy theories and voting rights/democracy is being further restricted in many states with certain Democratic senators refusing to take action to correct it. Much of Biden’s agenda is DOA in the Senate and the justice department is still defending Trump administration abuses.

And of course a third of the country is refusing to vaccinate.


This is all true as far as you write about the US, I am just not sure it holds up positively in comparison to Europe. Anti-vax sentiments are strong everywhere except in the UK. [The German equivalent of ACIP likely won't be recommending covid vaccines for 12-17 year olds.] Anti-semitism might not be as prominent in Europe, but it certainly exists, both in the hard right and in the Corbynist left. And in fact part of the reason it is not prominent is that xenophobia and racism is usually targeted at Muslims, in particular Arabs, or African immigrants. Or, for that matter, ask any Chinese person who has lived in Germany or in the US where they feel more comfortable. US might not be a democracy by 2024, but then if you picked a European country at random in 2024, chances aren't small you won't live in a democracy either. Meanwhile, as abysmal as the US public health response was to covid, the same is true for most of Europe, and at least the US acted efficiently to soften the economic damage (it's stimulus was quite a bit larger than what most European countries enacted).
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#18339 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-June-09, 13:16

View Postawm, on 2021-June-09, 06:54, said:

The relevance is that special elections like this often favor the “out of power” party significantly; for example special elections from 2017-2018 had a large Democratic swing which carried over into the 2018 midterms. This basically happens because special elections are low turnout affairs and the out if power party is angry about losing the presidency and more enthusiastic to turn out.

The fact that Democrats won this by roughly the same margin they won in 2020 suggests that the midterms might go better for them in 2022 than usual for the president’s party. Of course there are many other factors (NM Republican Party seems disfunctional, not a lot of outside spending to prop up either candidate) so it may not be that meaningful.

But there’s reason to think that Dems were fired up in 2017-2018 because they hate Trump. Republicans are upset now because “the election was stolen” but this is not so good a motivator for them to vote! It’s hard to drum up hatred for the (elderly, white, male, soft-spoken) Joe Biden.


For the past 6 months, Republican voters have been pounded with the message that the 2020 presidential election was stolen and that their vote doesn't count. Many people, with me towards the top of the list, have demanded that Republicans boycott every future election until the Manchurian President and Grifter in Chief is magically reinstated as president.

Further, the Republican voters had a massive turnout for Individual-1 in 2020, and he's been out of the public eye for months due to his social media suspensions and the fact that he isn't in the news daily as president. Also, he wasn't officially on the ballot in New Mexico. To me, the New Mexico Republicans did better than expected, but there's a core base that is always going to vote Republican. That core base isn't going anyplace in 2022, and Republican voter suppression laws will suppress the Democratic vote in future elections.
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#18340 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-June-09, 15:14

View Postcherdano, on 2021-June-09, 07:17, said:

Anti-semitism might not be as prominent in Europe, but it certainly exists,


...and your evidence for this is?
Anti-semitism is everywhere.
"Surging" in Germany and elsewhere in Europe.
One example - https://www.hrw.org/...ge-antisemitism
White nationalism and hatred of Jews are everywhere - especially In Europe.
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