[Kungsgeten]

I haven't got much experience with Polish club, but I do play Odwrotka in my Swedish Club system.

Typical Polish Club:

1C--1M;
2C = F1. Natural 15+
2D = GF with 3+M
3D = GF with long diamonds (awkward)
3M = 15--17 with clubs and 4 card support

Perhaps 2C and 2D could be combined, leaving 2D to show diamonds?

Not quite sure of the continuations, but something along these lines:

1C--1M;
2C = Natural 15+ or GF with 3+M
...2D = Waiting, most hands with 6--12
......2H = GF, 3+M
......2S = 5+ clubs, 4oM, 15+
......2N = 5+ clubs, no major, 15+
......3C = 5+ clubs, 3-card support, 15--17
...2H = Strong relay, 12+
......2S = 3+ support, GF
......2N+ = Various with 15--17 and clubs
...2S = 6+ major, 6--8
...2N = 6+ major, 9--11
...3CD = 5+ minor and 4 card major, 9--11

[benlessard]

Play 1D as 11-22. Very quickly you will see that its dumb to open 1C with long D and 16-21 pts.

[Jboling]

I think playing Odwyrtka (found on Dan's WJ2005 webpage) is the best alternative: 2NT = 4+ support, 2♦ = diamonds or balanced less than 4 card support. Jassem suggest natural followups, but after 2NT you can for sure play your favorite Jacoby/Stenberg structure, and after 2♦ I think you can play something similar to Bubrotka:
2♥ = any minimum
2♠ = 11+, 4+M
2NT = 11+, 6+M, singlesuiter
3m = 9-11, 5+m, 4M

I think that it is good that responder usually bid 2♥ or 2♠, after which opener can show a balanced hand with 2NT, and other bids are descriptive with 4+ diamonds (lowest rebid can be 4441).

Furthermore it can noted that 1♣-1M-3♦ is also free for something. I think 5+♦-4+M is a good choice, as this means that 1C-1M-2D denies 4M.

[Siegmund]

This is one area where I like the Unassuming Club approach better than the Polish approach. AUC swaps the 2C and 3C rebids:

1C-1H-2C = artif GF denying 3 hearts. Various rebid schemes by responder are possible here
1C-1H-2D = artif GF showing 3+ hearts. Use the -wrotka of your choice.
1C-1H-3C = long clubs, 15-19ish

I've been keeping 2S as a GF with long spades rather than putting those hands through 2C, but you can use 2S, 3D, or both to take care of various problem hands. Assinging one jump shift to cover BWDH may be all that is needed.

[Kungsgeten]

Siegmund: Right now we do something similar in the Swedish Club system I play (but here the strong hand always have 17+, no 15-16 with clubs)

1C--1H;
1S = Natural, weak or strong (5+ spades if strong, may have 3 hearts if 6+ spades)
1N = 11--13 NT
2C = 5+ minor and 4+ side suit, denies 3 hearts
2D = Odwrotka
2H = 11--13 NT, 4 hearts
2S = 6+ spades, strong, good suit
2N = 1--2 hearts, balanced or 4144
3CD = 6+ minor, single suited, denies 3 hearts
3H = 17--18 NT, 4 hearts

[phoenix214]

Have you looked at the Swedish club that was played by Lindkvist-Fredin some years back?
They played a relay version mostly with GF relays over 1♣-1♥/♠, and did not use Odwrotka/any other -wrotka
Since you have the whole 1bid/2bid concept - you can basically play some sort of a simple 2/1 here(ignoring 1C) and having level 1 responses NFish and 2M response as strong(basically implying a 2C as clubs/bal strong 2D diamonds 2NT with some support maybe).
With the intermediate hands - maybe 2♣ can be GF unless rebid lol

[gwnn]

I hate this for so many reasons. Well OK, for two reasons. You mess up the club hands and you mess up odwrotka. 1C-1H; 2C and 2D are the two most common auctions that deny a weak NT, you cannot just join to them together just like that. I had these sequences dozens of times but I can't remember having a strong hand with diamonds that I didn't know what to do with. If you add stuff like 3C=5D4C and 2NT possible with 6 diamonds and a notrumpy hand you're almost good to go.

[benlessard]

Maybe just

2C = 3trumps or good D.
2D= clubs denies 3 trumps if 17+.

over 2C-2D-??

2H/2S/2NT/3C show 3 trumps rest is D strong.

Im assuming that since clubs is 15+ but D start at 17+ you want to give more space for the clubs hands.

I personnaly would play 1S artificial here but it doesnt solve the problem after 1C-1S anyway.

[Kungsgeten]

phoenix214: Yes, I've looked at it. It is very clever but forces you to relay with all strong hands and also misses some major suit part scores. Before switching to Swedish Club me and partner played Moscito (and before that a two-way pass system inspired by Moscito and Magic Diamond) which relayed with nearly all GF hands. We play mostly matchpoints and then relay methods take quite a bit of time. Now we still use relays in many auctions, but not mandatory. I like it

gwnn: I do not quite understand your argument for why they can not be combined, but you may be right. As I wrote in OP I do not play Polish club, so our responses to 1C shows 8+ hcp and our strong hands, even with clubs, start at 17 hcp. When the 2C rebid can be 15 and responder can have 6 it may be to complicated to figure if we should play game or partscore when opener has clubs. Otherwise the method has many similarities to 2/1 GF where many use 2C as natural or balanced.

An updated outline, tailored towards Swedish Club, follows. Opener has 17+ (or 11-13 NT) and responder has a 4+ major and 8+ hcp, possibly longer minor if GF: With 3 card support strong opener always bid 2C, the exception being over 1H where opener may bid 1S with 6 spades and 3 hearts. With 4 card support opener may choose between 2C, bidding a suit of his own (showing support next round), raise to 3M with a balanced hand, or make a spöinter bid. Showing an own suit or making a splinter bid should probably show minimum values, about 17--18.

1C---1M;
1S = Natural, weak or strong (5+ spades if strong)
1N = Weak
2C = Natural, strong or 3+ support strong
2D = Natural, strong
2M = Weak
2H = Natural, strong
2S = 6+ spades, good suit < 3 hearts
2NT = Balanced, 1--2 card support
3m = Splinter
3M = 17--18 bal with support
3oM = Splinter

1C--1M; 2C---
2D = 8--11 catch-all, not canapé and not 6+ major
2H = 12+ catch-all, not 5422 and not 4333 if 12--15
2S = 6+M, 8--11
2N = 5+ diamonds, 8--12, just 4 card major
3C = 5+ clubs, 8--12, just 4 card major
3D = 5422 with diamonds, 12+
3M = 5422 with clubs, 12+
3oM = 5422 with oM, 12+
3NT = 4333, 12--15

Over both 2D and 2H opener relays with the strong support hand, but may support responder's suit at the 3-level with clubs and 4 card support instead. Other bids show clubs and less than 3 cards in responder's suit (following 2/1 principles, fairly natural). Over 2S opener bids 2NT with clubs (so that responder can show support with 3C) and bids 3C as a relay. Over the 5422 bids any "post full shape resolution" relay scheme can be used.

[gwnn]

They cannot be combined because you're ruining both sequences. In normal Polish Club you'd have nice, easy, natural sequences like:

1♣-1♥
2♣-??
2♦=10+, GF.
2♥=7-9
2NT=7-9
3♣=7-9

We're having a conversation now. Opener has a decent idea on what he should do. In yours, we will be way too high on just normal, easy hands.

1♣-1♥
2♣-2♦ (kind of automatic on all hands)
2♥=OK this is odwrotka but we're a level higher. you know odwrotka so you know this will hurt us. but OK at least we know what's going on.
2♠=15+ with clubs and spades - well I guess you know that this hand bids 1♠ in Polish but yikes, now we're at 2♠ and responder has no idea if opener has 15-17 or 18+, so now I have to choose between 2NT (no club tolerance)/3♣ (club tolerance) and have lost our 2♥ as a parking spot and will have to bid 2NT on stuff like 3541 and who knows what else. it's just a big mess, yea you could say that it's just one step but this one step really messes things up since responder doesn't know what to do.

I mean, it just stands to reason that you're messing up both conventions if you combine them both in the same bid, there's not too much to argue about there, you're making both of them way weaker if you make the same bid on two completely different hand types. The only question is, do we really gain that much by managing to bid 2♦ on those rare diamond hands? Well, 3♦ already shows like 18+ with 6+♦, where you know the following:
-no 3-card support for my major
-less than 4 cards in the other major
-less than 4 cards in clubs (maybe 6-4 OK)
-not notrumpy since you'd have rebid 2NT.

I'm actually fine by bidding 3♦ with this hand, or perhaps stretching the top of the range of the 1♦ opener. And honestly, I played PC for the whole year and I remember a grand total of 1 hand in which we got screwed by a diamond hand but only because we didn't have the agreement that 3♣ shows 5+♦,4+♣. I honestly don't remember when was the last time that I bid 1♣-1M; 3♦. Maybe never. But odwrotka comes up about once a session and 1C-1M; 2C almost once a session. Maybe I'm a bit off on these numbers but there's no question for me that 2♣ and 2♦ come up way way way more often than 3♦. That's what I was saying in my previous post. I just don't think you're going to gain so much on a relatively rare hand type by starting a level lower that you should sacrifice the two most common strong(ish) calls by uniting them.

[benlessard]

Maybe switching 3C and 3D.

3C= long diamonds 17+
3D strong 5D+4C 17+

it will wrongside some D contract but the step saved is worth a lot.

Note that known singlesuiter is usually 3 times more likely than a specific 54. However if you remove the hands with 3M support its probably 2 for one.

[gwnn]

benlessard, on 2015-June-11, 19:24, said:

Maybe switching 3C and 3D.

3C= long diamonds 17+
3D strong 5D+4C 17+

it will wrongside some D contract but the step saved is worth a lot.

Note that known singlesuiter is usually 3 times more likely than a specific 54. However if you remove the hands with 3M support its probably 2 for one.

Yea, probably. But I wouldn't like to play this since I'd get it wrong all the time. At least with 3♣ you know that 2♣ was also available so 3♣ can be (semi-)artificial.

[Kungsgeten]

gwnn: Thanks for the elaboration. I see the problem for the medium club hands. I think it works better in Swedish Club where you're in a GF. I do not agree that Odwrotka is messed up though, but I guess that depends on which Odwrotka version you play? I play a variant of "Odwrotka Strong Hearts", presented in Polish Club International:

1C-1M; 2D---
2H = Extras (we play 12+)
2S = Balanced, 4 card major
2NT = 5 card major and side suit
3m = Canapé
3H = 6+ major
3S = 5332
3NT = 4333

Compared to this the 2C natural/strong I suggest save space, since some hands bid above 2H right away and the other hands still start at 2S or 2NT, just like above.

As a side note: don't polish have a problem when holding 18+ with diamonds and the other major too? A jump to the 3-level seems awkward with these hands. 5422 can be treated as balanced but perhaps not 5431 and 6421? Perhaps it is standard to bid spades first if having 4 spades and longer diamonds, but even so it is a problem with diamonds and hearts.