[kenberg]

 ArtK78, on 2015-June-07, 00:00, said:

As I have learned in my years of practice, the reason that some people have multiple attorneys is because some of their attorneys have refused to represent them. And if an attorney refuses to represent you, there is a good reason.

It's so easy for things to get out of hand. Here is what happened in a f2f game recently. The uncontested auction (I am declarer0:
1C-1H
1NT-2D (alerted by me as new minor)
3NT

Apparently I put down my 3NT bid with extra force. i hadn't intended to and hadn't realized I did, but perhaps I did. Before passing, rho asked if there was any significance to my added force in putting down my bidding cards. Partner said no, there wasn't. After the play was over (and I ran a squeeze for an overtrick) rho then asked me what it meant when I put down the bidding cards in that manner. I said "We are joking, right?". No. So I responded that my 1NT showed 12-14 balanced and my 3NT showed a desire to play 3NT rather than 2NT.

What was going on? I figured it out. Rho is very loud, and when I was playing a couple weeks ago he was frequently making comments. I had asked the director if he could get the guy to analyze the hands and make his complaints in a manner so that the whole room did not have to listen to it. At least I think it was him. Apparently he had been nursing a grudge.

Sometimes we just have to get out of these things alive, the winning and losing is meaningless by comparison. I take some satisfaction in rarely needing lawyers. If I need one, of course I will get one. but I prefer not to need one. I feel pretty much the same about director calls. Recently the auction went Pass-Pass-1NT alerted as forcing. Say what? Obviously lho had a misfire in her brain. Might there be a need for a director? I couldn't think of why, and we just went on.

Anyway, back to the thread. The 4S preempt followed by 5S and then 6S reminded me of a time when I was a volunteer playing bridge with patients at a mental insitution (the same one that houses Hinckley if he is still there). This one rather large guy played most every hand, simply by bidding until everyone else stopped. I was a bit hesitant to double him.

[Trinidad]

I expect you never tried to double him with a voice of thunder.



Rik

[mikeh]

 diana_eva, on 2015-June-07, 04:17, said:

I think it's a natural reaction to get tilted when the whole community seems to be mobbing against you. IMO PhilG is right now on that thin line where he can lean towards listening and becoming a normal member of the community, or blow up completely and turn into a troll. Let him vent, maybe now he will see it's not personal and it's all about communication. If mods also censor him while allowing others to attack him (I'm sure that's his perception of what's going on here), there will be little chances that he goes the non-troll way.

He chose to take it out on MikeH. Bad choice, since Mike actually has a shiny visible symbol in his profile to prove he is a good player in real life. I hope mikeh will not mind, the "attack" is so absurd it's almost amusing.

Side-note: I've heard the anti-social, these-people-have-no-friends argument before from people who did not know what that star means, and why stars would write something so unfriendly in their profile. Seemed like a good moment to demote that myth along the way.

This is probably not the best approach, and the other mods are welcome to come clear the thread.

Trust me, attacks by this guy on my bridge ability aren't causing me anything but a smile. As for the 'only play with friends', it was put in as an attempt, partially successful, to avoid being constantly asked to play in 'ALL STAR TEAM GAME's. Instead of getting about one such invite about every two minutes (including when I was already playing with friends!) I sometimes go for an hour without one

I do not play much bridge, whether online or not, and prefer to play with friends when I do. And when I am watching, or commentating, it gets tiresome to either decline requests I have not invited or to ignore them.

As for my skill level, technically by BBO definition, I am World Class. I happen to think that WC should refer top players with a proven ability to be a serious challenge for medals in world play or the major team championships at such things as the NABC. I am not that good. In addition, I see some players claim WC status on BBO who are, frankly, bad players, and of course we all know that 80% or more of BBO experts are far from expert, so I simply opt to keep my skill level private. My friends and others who have played with or against me have their views of my abilities and since I am not looking to expand my bridge-playing, I don't care what others think.

[nige1]

 Phil, on 2015-June-05, 09:24, said:

You are right, anyone can post in these forums. Two good players named MikeH and Timo are sitting at the bar at a NABC after an event .... Now, some random who played in the event, or maybe the Gold Rush Pairs who has had a few too many Budweisers strolls over and inserts himself into the conversation without really being invited.

Is that analogy germane to current events on BBF? PhilG007 started a topic. Mikeh and Mr Ace replied accusing him of trolling.

 diana_eva, on 2015-June-07, 04:17, said:

He chose to take it out on MikeH. Bad choice, since Mike actually has a shiny visible symbol in his profile to prove he is a good player in real life. I hope mikeh will not mind, the "attack" is so absurd it's almost amusing.

We're grateful to the better players on BBO for allowing us to benefit from their wisdom. It's absurd, however, to cast an aggressor in the role of innocent victim.

 diana_eva, on 2015-June-07, 04:17, said:

This is probably not the best approach, and the other mods are welcome to come clear the thread.

IMO, we should tolerate eccentric views. We should attack opinions and arguments rather than their proponents. I like Diana_Eva's approach of creating this thread to side-line personal attacks and lèse-majesté protests.

[MrAce]

 nige1, on 2015-June-07, 10:55, said:

IMO, we should be tolerant of eccentric views. We should attack opinions and arguments rather than their proponents.

Not in N/B forums, and definitely not when the owner of eccentric views intentionally harming the newcomers just to piss of other people. Not in the expense of newcomers to the game.

Besides, there is a huge difference between eccentric and moronic.

[diana_eva]

FWIW I don't think he's posting to intentionally harm beginners. I raised the question with the other mods whether we should censor bad advice from the N/B Forums. Until now it was not necessary to police the N/B content-wise, the community did a fine job at answering questions and pointing out why bad advice was bad.

[ggwhiz]

 Trinidad, on 2015-June-07, 08:32, said:

I expect you never tried to double him with a voice of thunder.



Rik

My University hosted training camp for the Ottawa Roughriders and a defensive end suffered a career ending injury and they bought out his contract.

He stuck around for a year and took up bridge with the rest of us........ and went the whole year without being doubled.

[kenberg]

The initial post refers back to the "responding to a preempt" topic, posted in the I/A forum not the N/B forum. I'll say a little about both cases.


I/A: I rate myself as advanced. I learned bridge in 1961 reading Goren and played rubber bridge for a while, then didn't play at all until maybe 1977 or so when I started playing duplicate. I used to play quite a bit, I have played far less ofte over the past twenty years, I have been playing more again lately. I know something, but an expert I am not.
I mentioned that I found the initial topic, responding to a 3D preempt, interesting. Mr Ace says 3H, mikeh says pass but he would bid at imps. I hadn't responded on the original thread but I mentioned on this thread that I thought it worth discussing just what we exepect partner to raise 3H to 4H on. Qx yes, stiff Q no, I think. At any rate, I find the question interesting. The question was posed by eagles123 and I can say I often find his posts of interest. I also think that both eagles and I can recognize an eccentric approach when we see it. Raising 3D to 5D is not my plan, and I doubt it was his.

N/B: I have never posted there, but if I did it would probably be as an attempt to help rather than because I was seeking advice from my fellow B/N players. It's true that a B/N could get misled by bad advice but they won't die from it and I think that they will quickly learn to take advice with a grain of salt. We all know this really, both in bridge and in life. I regard a couple of phrases as tip-offs: "As I tell my students...". Uh huh. Just give your views, skip the faux credentials. and "I am a certified director and ..." Yes, but I will be calling the certified director who is running the game.

There used to be an I/N forum, but no more I guess. I occasionally poste there to answer someone's question and I would sometimes get balsted for it. Not because the blaster thought I was wrong but the complaint was that what i was saying was too advanced. Well, I didn't think that it was. A lot of intermediates play fairly well and have a fair amount of knowledge, and I figured if someone thought what I was saying was over their heads they could simply ignore me and go on to the next. I was pretty sure some intermediates would find my comment useful or I wouldn't have made it. I sometimes play with people who rate themselves as intermediates so I have some basis for making this judgment.

Bottom line here: I think Eva has it about right. Largely people can say what they want to say, readers can evaluate it, live and learn, and if the thread becomes too testy move it somewhere. Moving it to the WC is fine, especially with the British understanding of WC.

[MrAce]

 diana_eva, on 2015-June-07, 11:15, said:

FWIW I don't think he's posting to intentionally harm beginners. I raised the question with the other mods whether we should censor bad advice from the N/B Forums. Until now it was not necessary to police the N/B content-wise, the community did a fine job at answering questions and pointing out why bad advice was bad.

Lets agree to disagree then.


It is very hard for a novice to understand which reply was bad and why.

Hell..we have 10-20-30 years of players here in forums who would not even go anywhere near a play or defense problem. Will never suggest a line. Forget about suggesting they can not even tell which line is better even after people suggested. And you are expecting a novice to reasonably understand the difference between replies? Some of which are not only fundamentally wrong but also can make a novice decide not to play this game.

And this guy is not even making some sort of unpopular suggestions. He is talking about the worst conventions starting with negative double. He is talking about opening 1♣ when holding 6 card spade suit and trying to explain why it is correct. This guy can't even count tricks in double dummy .This guy suggesting to pass with 20 hcp etc etc. And doing these in B/N forums.

Tbh, I would have no problem what so ever, if you guys decided that N/B forum is open to ONLY N/B players and MODS and players with stars. I would not be offended despite the fact that I made a living and still do from teaching. At least I would be comfortable knowing that palookas are not messing with N/B. It is not even a very populated forum. Mostly we have a novice or beginner asking a question now and then, and a pile of people answering just to make them even more confused. You-Ben-Barmar are more than capable of replying their questions along with the players with stars. There is not huge amount of N/B players coming everyday asking questions. Please protect them.

[mikeh]

 nige1, on 2015-June-07, 10:55, said:

Is that analogy germane to current events on BBF? PhilG007 started a topic. Mikeh and Mr Ace replied accusing him of trolling. [/size] We're grateful to the better players on BBO for allowing us to benefit from their wisdom. It's absurd, however, to cast an aggressor in the role of innocent victim.

Please note that I have not in anyway tried to cast myself as a victim, innocent or otherwise.

Quote

[/size] IMO, we should tolerate eccentric views. We should attack opinions and arguments rather than their proponents. I like Diana_Eva's approach of creating this thread to side-line personal attacks and [/size]lèse-majesté protests.

There comes a point at which reasonable people will, generally,see when a line has been crossed from eccentricity to malice. I would not be in favour of any rule that tried to specify in advance where that line should be drawn, and would be strenuously opposed to any rule that required or even permitted banning a player, in the absence of legally enforceable misconduct, based on one or even two or three instances. However, it is my right, and the right of all here, to point out when, in my opinion, someone is demonstrating not mere eccentricity but malicious intent.

For example, we have a poster in the WC who has a bizarre and silly take on global warming, cherry-picking information in an effort, it seems, to persuade us that it either doesn't exist or is not contributed to by human activities. He is silly but harmless, since this forum isn't about global warming and any impact he has would be below the level of noise, so I would never support his being banned, nor Lukewarm,despite their having, what to me seems to be, delusional beliefs.

This guy isn't like those guys. He seems to be to be intentionally poisoning the forum, and deriving some sick fun from it. He is striking at the very notion of a bridge community in which all levels of players can learn or express something about this great game. That, IMO, gives us a right to ask that he be barred. Please understand that I do not in anyway suggest that his attack on me, which you appear to view as a legitimate response to my criticisms of him, should be a factor. I'm sufficiently secure in my assessment if who I am that his attack is merely risible.

[MrAce]

 nige1, on 2015-June-07, 10:55, said:

Is that analogy germane to current events on BBF? PhilG007 started a topic. Mikeh and Mr Ace replied accusing him of trolling.

If you check his replies and think about the only other option other than trolling that he may be writing such replies, then you will realize that accusing him of trolling was the higher ground.

Look Nige1, you know I like you and I always did. You are an honest man and you defend your opinions w/o being intimidated by names or fame. I get that. And I personally like it, despite the fact that we disagree now and then. I also like you being polite and respectful to others and expect the same. I also like that you step up and defend those who you think are being gang banged.

But on this one I have to tell you that you are being unfair. You talk like it all started because Mike and I called him troll and totally ignored all others who also called him the same. You ignore that it all started by him calling names to people such as "palookas" "fake experts" "Mr Deuce" etc etc and act like we are just trigger happy newcomer bashers. with all due respect, this simply is not the case.

You and mods should worry more about the newcomers to game than some attention freak troll. I disagree with them and you that what he is saying is harmless. No novice would want to have anything to do with a topic where people are fundamentally disagreeing with each other, getting into pissing contest. Worst part is that they would not know the difference. Expecting a good result from this type of encounters in N/B forums is as naive as it gets imho.

[nige1]

 MrAce, on 2015-June-07, 10:59, said:

Not in N/B forums, and definitely not when the owner of eccentric views intentionally harming the newcomers just to piss of other people. Not in the expense of newcomers to the game. Besides, there is a huge difference between eccentric and moronic.

How can you diagnose another poster's motives? Even were his views mistaken, how can you know they're intentionally malicious? Such speculation side-tracks rational argument onto time-wasting ego-trips. It's simpler and quicker to present counter-arguments. Relevant experience and cogent argument easily discredit faulty claims

[jjbrr]

 hrothgar, on 2015-June-07, 04:14, said:

At times, I wonder whether we only have one primary forum troll who periodically sheds his skin...

CayugaGuy ---> Lukewarm ---> 32519 ----> Phil007

.

[masse24]

 PhilG007, on 2015-June-04, 08:08, said:

[I]f you want a verbal punch up, let's do it in private...I'm more than capable of dealing with your kind, Bud

After reading PhilG's previous posts, filled with masterful bridge analysis, lucid arguments, and peppered with eloquent rebuttals aimed at his detractors, I can't help but chuckle at the memory of the lion he reminds me of.

https://www.youtube....h?v=4trn2lJxl00

[diana_eva]

 MrAce, on 2015-June-07, 13:34, said:

...
You and mods should worry more about the newcomers to game than some attention freak troll. I disagree with them and you that what he is saying is harmless. No novice would want to have anything to do with a topic where people are fundamentally disagreeing with each other, getting into pissing contest. Worst part is that they would not know the difference. Expecting a good result from this type of encounters in N/B forums is as naive as it gets imho.
...

There are two separate issues here:

1) Should mods police content in N/B Forums, and filter out bad advice?
2) Are people who give bad advice doing so intentionally to harm novice players?

I simply claimed that we don't know that #2 is true. Nige1 says the same thing, how can you know he posts with the intention to harm newbies?

[kenberg]

I have given this some thought.


First, about me: I imagined myself as a beginner. No doubt I would be confused (I once was told I should not lead away fom a King. I thought that meant I should lead the King. It seemed stupid but I tried it. Not twice.) All in all, I prefer not to be protected from bad advice. I could give a zillion reasons for this preference, but no matter, it is my preference.

Where this leads: If bbo, through eva or otherwise, decides to ban someone then they should do that because they believe it is in the best interests of bbo to do so.

So, for me, it all comes down to pretty much what it always comes down to: I'll watch out for me, eva, as a mod, and others, can watch out for bbo.

I actually think that things work better that way. I could argue why, but this is one of the fundamentals of life that I won't be changing my mind about.

[mikeh]

 diana_eva, on 2015-June-07, 14:23, said:

There are two separate issues here:

1) Should mods police content in N/B Forums, and filter out bad advice?
2) Are people who give bad advice doing so intentionally to harm novice players?

I simply claimed that we don't know that #2 is true. Nige1 says the same thing, how can you know he posts with the intention to harm newbies?

You can't, if the test is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. But this is not a court of criminal justice (and in many cultures, the test isn't reasonable doubt anyway). It is a good, useful approach to examine the totality of the evidence and to draw inferences therefrom. If he isn't trolling/being intentionally malicious, then he is, I suggest, a seriously deluded person whose posts, whether intentionally or otherwise do harm to the community.

You and others have implored him to read the posts that are critical of his ideas, and I defy you to show a single example of his doing that and making a rational response.

People like him take advantage of good-hearted people such as you and nige1. I may be less forgiving in part because in my professional life I have experienced this sort of thing, and I know from those experiences that it can be very, very difficult to accept that someone is not merely innocently. Mistaken or eccentric but in fact an intentional or seriously deluded actor. My personal view is that the weight of the evidence is compelling. However, this is not my forum: I am merely one of the participants and I respect your apparent wish to continue to extend this troll the benefit if the doubt. I ca easily block him. My concern is much as that expressed by Timo: it isn't about me....it is about the forumas a safe, comfortable learning environment. The troll's suggestions aren't about to make my game worse, but they risk hurting those less experienced and looking to learn..after all, if I were a newbie and saw that someone was a recognized BIL mentor, I might think that there was merit I his suggestions, even tho they get criticized by people who aren't mentors.

[MrAce]

 diana_eva, on 2015-June-07, 14:23, said:

There are two separate issues here:

1) Should mods police content in N/B Forums, and filter out bad advice?
2) Are people who give bad advice doing so intentionally to harm novice players?

I simply claimed that we don't know that #2 is true. Nige1 says the same thing, how can you know he posts with the intention to harm newbies?

Not me. Ignore what Timo wants if you believe Timo has beef with Phil, which is not the case but still. Listen and read the comments by other members of this community whose posts never or rarely cause problems.

 cherdano, on 2015-June-07, 11:41, said:

Can it be made any more obvious that BBF would be a better place if PhilG007 was banned?

And then instead of asking me how to solve these 2 separate issues, which are created by you mods, listen to the suggestion I made which eliminates those issues to begin with. Just make a new sticky that says "only for N/B players and Mods and BBF world class players"

End of the story, problem solved! Which rescues you from having to police the content of the posts made by John Doe or Jane Doe and/or whether they are intentional or not. As I said, it is not like you have 50 hits from B/N everyday asking 100 questions. What is it...3 -4 a week ? You do not need everyone to be able to get in there and help. As you see it is being abused, intentional or not. #1 priority to teaching bridge is to make sure the newcomer loves it and a drama queen topics are not gonna help your cause.

[diana_eva]

 MrAce, on 2015-June-07, 15:16, said:

Not me. Ignore what Timo wants if you believe Timo has beef with Phil, which is not the case but still. Listen and read the comments by other members of this community whose posts are never or rarely cause problems.




And then instead of asking me how to solve these 2 separate issues, which are created by you mods, listen to the suggestion I made which eliminates those issues to begin with. Just make a new sticky that says "only for N/B players and Mods and BBF world class players"

End of the story, problem solved! Which rescues you from having to police the content of the posts made by John Doe or Jane Doe and/or whether they are intentional or not. As I said, it is not like you have 50 hits from B/N everyday asking 100 questions. What is it...3 -4 a week ? You do not need everyone to be able to get in there and help. As you see it is being abused, intentional or not. #1 priority to teaching bridge is to make sure the newcomer loves it and a drama queen topics are not gonna help your cause.

So you think N/B Forums advice should be moderated. OK, I get that.

[MrAce]

 diana_eva, on 2015-June-07, 15:25, said:

So you think N/B Forums advice should be moderated. OK, I get that.

I do not understand this comment. Were they not moderated? I thought you and Barmar and Ben moderates every forums.
What I suggest is B/N forum to be restricted.