[aguahombre]

 Bbradley62, on 2014-October-23, 13:06, said:

I'm just speculating, but... they probably got AVG scores because the tournament rules prohibit psychs, and EW called the director and reported the psych, so the director voided the board.

If that is true, and if was for ACBL masterpoints, and if that was the process (no process) ---then one more bit of ammo for those of us who believe on-line should clean up its act and follow ACBL procedures or not claim ACBL sanction.

[Bbradley62]

not ACBL masterpoints (nor BBO masterpoints for that matter). Just someone who decided to run a casual tournament.

[the hog]

Obviously no cheating involved otherwise the contract would have been 7 Diamonds. Another spurious allegation.

[aguahombre]

 the hog, on 2014-October-23, 19:19, said:

Obviously no cheating involved otherwise the contract would have been 7 Diamonds. Another spurious allegation.

Cute, funny, but not necessarily accurate. From what I have seen, those who resort to using extraneous communication/information either don't get ENOUGH information to optimize or don't have the skill to apply the information to the absolute maximum result.

Heck, they don't even have enough skill to escape getting caught.

[the hog]

 aguahombre, on 2014-October-23, 19:33, said:

Cute, funny, but not necessarily accurate. From what I have seen, those who resort to using extraneous communication/information either don't get ENOUGH information to optimize or don't have the skill to apply the information to the absolute maximum result.

Heck, they don't even have enough skill to escape getting caught.

Yes, maybe.

[silvr bull]

Edit: I decided to report the hand to Abuse, so no need to keep it here too.

[billw55]

 the hog, on 2014-October-23, 19:19, said:

Obviously no cheating involved otherwise the contract would have been 7 Diamonds. Another spurious allegation.

Or 7NT.

[uday]

To report a cheater, drop us an email at abuse@bridgebase.com

What actually happens depends considerably on a few factors.

1. If the report is about cheating in a game that issues masterpoints

We take a quick look at the report itself and if there seems to be a hint of smoke, or if the person reporting the issue is someone we already know and trust ( ie, an old timer on BBO ) we send it off for a flyover. if that makes us suspicious we do an in-depth review.

The in-depth review will lead to a determination of cheating/not-cheating/unsure.

If we're unsure we watch list the person and re-investigate periodically.

If we're sure we review the decision again, then take action. This involves block the person from the games, or deactivate the username, or blocking the user's PCs or IP addresses or credit cards etc. No one answer here. If ACBL was involved we notify ACBL HQ and block the reporting of masterpoints. We also email/bbomail the person along the way.


2. If the cheating was not for masterpoints, but in a VIP context ( example, in a high profile team game, or by a stared username )

See above, except we usually remove the star along the way, just as we would if someone with a star was rude to others ( stars ultimately mean that BBO considers the player worth watching )


3. If the cheating was by one of our (volunteer) hosts

Shocker, but we usually part ways at this point


4. If the cheating was in the main bridge club

This is the hardest sort of thing to handle. We usually perform a cursory inspection, not using our best resources, and issue the usual disciplinary actions ( scramble, ban ). There are some people who insist on cheating and given the nature of BBO today, it is hard to keep them out; they keep cheating.


None of this is perfect. I could go on for a bit longer but I don't want to sidetrack this thread.

[sdwcheney]

 Jinksy, on 2014-October-23, 06:35, said:

I just played a hand in a BBO tourney where they couldn't have been more obviously cheating if they tried... what's the easiest way to send it to the relevant people?

Players can and do talk to each other on phones while playing BBO Tournaments. I have brought this to the attention of both ACBL and BBO,
neither is willing to do anything about it. I no longer play pair games on BBO because of this.

[inquiry]

 sdwcheney, on 2014-October-24, 11:56, said:

Players can and do talk to each other on phones while playing BBO Tournaments. I have brought this to the attention of both ACBL and BBO,
neither is willing to do anything about it. I no longer play pair games on BBO because of this.

Open Letter to Jinksy

Dear Jinksy,

Don't pay attention to the claim by sdwcheney quoted above, but instead read the response by UDAY immediately above sdwcheney's comments. Uday is one of the major BBO programmers and principles. He speaks for BBO and is the person in position to know what the he is talking about.

Now, to address yours concerns. Does cheating happen on BBO and other online bridge sites? Yes, There is no doubt. Do people talk to each other on phone? Sure , sometime, others on Skype, or instant messenger, or sitting next to each other in one room, or one person logging in from two accounts on one or two computers. That is, there is no need to just use phones.

Does that mean don't play bridge online? Of course not. Here is a much earlier thread asking the same questions you are asking with a lot of thoughtful responses cheats on BBO (from 2006), So everyone admits that cheating occurs online (Fred in the thread I just gave, uday in this thread). So let's accept that as a given. BBO, ACBL, and other online bridge sites don't need people like sdwcheney telling them that "cheating occurs". They know it. More useful is if they report who is cheating with some evidence to support their claim. Usually more than one hand is needed, but that is another subject.

Now let's deal with what BBO does with reports of cheating. Uday told you above, they investigate and take action when cheating is proved. Let's handle the pair you want to report for cheating (assuming it is the hand shown in this thread). First, let's demonstrate to you that even when reasonable bridge players are CERTAIN that cheating is occurring they can be wrong. I am going to state that you are a reasonable bridge player. Why, because I have read your post here in the forum. Let's start with the hand posted. The slam bidders underbid. There are easily 13 tricks in notrump. There is no way to miss it, so cheaters would bid 7NT. Second, cheaters don't have to leap to slam, they can bid as slow and confusing as they want, they know they will not be passed out until the grand slam is reached (if they are cheating). So the hand actually suggest that they ARE NOT CHEATING but are very poor players. Let's examine it a little further, if this pair was cheating in the Matchpoint game you played in, what would you think their matchpoint score would be? 80%? 75%? How about 70 or 65%? Surely someone cheating would do very well, right? At least 60%, or possibly 55%. What would you say if they only scored 50%? How about 45%? What about 40%? The pair that bid that slam against you scored 35%, and they had disaster after disaster during this event.

So what would the finding that the pair that you stated "they couldn't have been more obviously cheating if they tried" the hand submitted is actually suggesting that they are not cheating and they did so poorly and had a lot of disaster in the event have on your conclusion that they where cheating? Could they be poor players who don't know how to bid? Is the evidence really that strong that they are cheating? IF after examining the evidence of the hand you reported and the other hands they played in the same tournament you reached a conclusion that they were not cheating, you will see one of the problems with the "these guys are cheating" reports that frequently show up and discussed somewhat in the thread I quoted above. But rest assured, BBO does spend considerable resources investigating and catching cheaters. Everyone caught cheating in ACBL are reported to ACBL, in addition to the actions uday reported above. So I will tell you that BBO and ACBL are both very interested in catching and removing cheaters from the BBO. The ACBL game on line is probably the cleanest online tournaments on BBO... certain much cleaner than the "free tournaments", team games, and the main rooms, in part because cheaters are caught and removed from these events, and in part because ACBL players don't want to risk being caught and reported to ACBL for cheating.

Players who are looking for online cheaters will see them frequently. In part because people from all over the world play on BBO and use so many different bidding systems most often without an alert, so that the auctions look unrealistic.. and the assumption is they must be cheating.., did you see how the bid? If you see obvious cheating, report it to abuse@bridgebase.com. But, and this might be sdwcheney problem, don't expect to get a report back that says yes, you are right they are cheating, or no you are wrong they are not cheating. BBO does not provide that "satisfaction" to the people reporting cheating. BBO does keeps all it actions against members private, with the exception being reporting to ACBL if the cheating occurred in ACBL. So it likely that sdwcheney reported something and never got a pat on the back for reporting it, or a message pointing out why he was wrong as evidence BBO (and ACBL) doesn't care. He was wrong. If you think abuse is an empty, impersonal place to send a report, you can email your report to me at inquiry at bridgebase dot com. I will respond to the report, and probably tell you that I am turning it over to abuse, but I will make sure the pair is examined and not just put on the shelf somewhere. I certainly don't want to sent a lot of such reports, that is abuse's job, but should you think you have a problem with abuse, you can write to me.

[barrado]

I was accused of cheating by bbo and it was a misclick, which I told the opponents right away. There was no review and now I am banned from Speedball Tournaments. It is sad that no appeal process is in place. This speaks volumes about BBO

[Bbradley62]

 barrado, on 2014-October-30, 10:12, said:

I was accused of cheating by bbo and it was a misclick, which I told the opponents right away. There was no review and now I am banned from Speedball Tournaments. It is sad that no appeal process is in place. This speaks volumes about BBO

Since it is ACBL Speedball tourneys that you played, was it BBO or ACBL who banned you?

[aguahombre]

This means nothing about the specific case, here. But I have found that the faster an opponent alibi's, the more likely it is not to be believed.

[barmar]

 Bbradley62, on 2014-October-30, 10:33, said:

Since it is ACBL Speedball tourneys that you played, was it BBO or ACBL who banned you?

For ACBL to ban a player, they would have to go through a formal disciplinary hearing. This is generally only done for the most eggregious acts, and he would then be banned from all ACBL clubs and tournaments, not just BBO speedballs.

[inquiry]

 barrado, on 2014-October-30, 10:12, said:

I was accused of cheating by bbo and it was a misclick, which I told the opponents right away. There was no review and now I am banned from Speedball Tournaments. It is sad that no appeal process is in place. This speaks volumes about BBO

We don't allow people to suggest that users (by nicknames) cheat on BBO in these forums. As our rules stand right now, no one will be allowed to discuss hands you played in these forums as it relates to your claims one way or the other. However, your post raises an interesting point. Should we allow users, such as yourself who have been recently sanctioned by BBO to post a request for a public appeal in the forum?

The result might be chaos, but forum members, if they were interested, could review hands played by these individuals and start a discussion on the merits of the BB0's action. This would include, for instance, some forum members agreeing with BB0's Conclusion and suggesting publically that the player was cheating and others thinking the player didn't cheat.

My initial thoughts were if the person posting agreed that they would accept public comments (good or bad) this might be useful. But the more I have thought about it, the more I think it is not a good idea. First, I am unsure if BBO has an appeal process or not. Second, if there was mixed results with some people on both sides, it might result in BBO having to expose some of the process they use to investigate suspected pairs. That might aide clever cheaters to avoid detection longer if they read. about it in the forum.

So my official position as an administrator will remain that we will not allow the discussing of cheating issues related to any alias in the Forums. Anyone interested in supporting barrado innocence (or guilt) will have to do so by private e-mail to someone at BBO. I suggest abuse@bridgebase.com OR you an write to me at inquiry at the same address and I will see to it that your comments get reviewed.

Finally, let me assure everyone that no-one is convicted of cheating based on one hand where they misclicked.

[aguahombre]

I hate it when I publicly argue with myself and lose.

[Jinksy]

This tournament did, IIRC.

The 'bad beginner' had played something in the vicinity of 10000 hands, as had the player who psyched in second seat. I suppose misclick and bad bid is plausible, but looking at their hands only, it's hard to think of a better way to reach the slam and deter the danger lead. One hand proves nothing I suppose, but I certainly think they should be placed on a watch list.

[billw55]

 Jinksy, on 2014-November-07, 10:15, said:

This tournament did, IIRC.

The 'bad beginner' had played something in the vicinity of 10000 hands, as had the player who psyched in second seat. I suppose misclick and bad bid is plausible, but looking at their hands only, it's hard to think of a better way to reach the slam and deter the danger lead. One hand proves nothing I suppose, but I certainly think they should be placed on a watch list.

Many hands played is not an indication of skill. We all know life novices.

Also as Ben says, they scored badly in this event. If they were cheating then they are really bad at it.

Yes, it stinks to be the one that gets the bad result against the bad pair. Happens to everyone sooner or later.

[steve2005]

you cant tell anything from 1 hand, all you can do is send it to abuse and if enough people do it sets a pattern.

But for 1 hand can be anything from a misclick to plain bad play that worked out or someone gets a phone call or something else distracts them or just plain luck

[Zelandakh]

 barrado, on 2014-October-30, 10:12, said:

I was accused of cheating by bbo and it was a misclick, which I told the opponents right away. There was no review and now I am banned from Speedball Tournaments. It is sad that no appeal process is in place. This speaks volumes about BBO

Is this the hand you are referring to?

No I guess it was actually this one [removed links]

This post has been edited by diana_eva: 2014-November-10, 02:38
Reason for edit: Removed links