[blackshoe]

 Vampyr, on 2014-October-19, 20:18, said:

An opponent's making a skip bid without using the Stop card is highly unusual and unexpected.

It ought to be, and it England it probably is, from what I remember. Around here, not so much.

[barmar]

 blackshoe, on 2014-October-19, 22:50, said:

It ought to be, and it England it probably is, from what I remember. Around here, not so much.

Maybe that's why we're not as sympathetic. On this side of the pond, I think less than half the players use the Stop card, so we're used to actually looking at the bidding cards; we can't be complacent.

On the other side, where Stop card use is the norm, it's easier to fall into the bad habit of assuming non-jump bids when it's not used. And I can then understand why directors would throw the book at the non-Stopper, rather than the inattentive player.

[mycroft]

s/use/recognize/

I'd suggest that somewhere around 3-5% use it, and many of those use it incorrectly. I think that's why there's such a backlash from many strong players about its use (all it seems to do for them is alert the bidder's partner). There's also a backslash from many Eeeeeexperts, but that's because they *like* their partner knowing that they have a problem this time</snark>

[blackshoe]

Heh, too true, Mycroft, too true.

The regulation says that players "should" use the stop card. The Laws say that failure to do what one "should" do is an infraction. The ACBL says that "should" means use of the stop card is optional. I think the ACBL is wrong - not that the 500 pound canary cares what I think.

[barmar]

 blackshoe, on 2014-October-20, 18:33, said:

Heh, too true, Mycroft, too true.

The regulation says that players "should" use the stop card. The Laws say that failure to do what one "should" do is an infraction. The ACBL says that "should" means use of the stop card is optional. I think the ACBL is wrong - not that the 500 pound canary cares what I think.

But the Laws also say that failing a "should" is not normally penalized. So ACBL's logic is that if there's no penalty for not using the Stop card, it's effectively optional. The purpose of using the Stop card is stated to be to "protect their rights and the opponent's"; so if they don't use it, I guess their rights aren't protected, and that's considered to be a built-in punishment.

The current version of the regulation says that experienced players are expected to maintain proper tempo (i.e. hesitate after a skip bid) whether the Stop card is used or not. Has that "experienced" qualifier always been there?

[aguahombre]

 barmar, on 2014-October-21, 09:47, said:

The current version of the regulation says that experienced players are expected to maintain proper tempo (i.e. hesitate after a skip bid) whether the Stop card is used or not. Has that "experienced" qualifier always been there?

Dunno whether it has always been there, but it makes things interesting. So, when we use the Stop Card, we are also expressing our opinion about the level and/or ethics of LHO. However, only the experienced LHO would recognize the insult.

[blackshoe]

 barmar, on 2014-October-21, 09:47, said:

But the Laws also say that failing a "should" is not normally penalized. So ACBL's logic is that if there's no penalty for not using the Stop card, it's effectively optional. The purpose of using the Stop card is stated to be to "protect their rights and the opponent's"; so if they don't use it, I guess their rights aren't protected, and that's considered to be a built-in punishment.

The current version of the regulation says that experienced players are expected to maintain proper tempo (i.e. hesitate after a skip bid) whether the Stop card is used or not. Has that "experienced" qualifier always been there?

"Not normally penalized" does not mean "no penalty". "Rights not protected" is a punishment? I don't buy it. And what of the rights of the opponents? I'm not at all sure of the logic there.

[barmar]

 aguahombre, on 2014-October-21, 09:59, said:

Dunno whether it has always been there, but it makes things interesting. So, when we use the Stop Card, we are also expressing our opinion about the level and/or ethics of LHO. However, only the experienced LHO would recognize the insult.

If a player were inconsistent in their use of the Stop card, and it depended on which player was their LHO, I suppose you could interpret it that way.

[Vampyr]

 barmar, on 2014-October-21, 09:47, said:

The current version of the regulation says that experienced players are expected to maintain proper tempo (i.e. hesitate after a skip bid) whether the Stop card is used or not. Has that "experienced" qualifier always been there?

How is a player who has to think about his next call supposed to count the seconds he is taking as well? The regulation would be better if it stipulated that when no Stop card is used, LHO can take as long (or as short) as she needs.

[aguahombre]

 barmar, on 2014-October-21, 10:08, said:

If a player were inconsistent in their use of the Stop card, and it depended on which player was their LHO, I suppose you could interpret it that way.

AND, is my opinion of LHO...expressed by use of the Stop Card...AI or UI?

Anyway, unless I am in a jurisdiction which requires its use, you will never see the Stop Card come out of my box unless I thought it was a Double by mistake.

[barmar]

 Vampyr, on 2014-October-21, 10:26, said:

How is a player who has to think about his next call supposed to count the seconds he is taking as well? The regulation would be better if it stipulated that when no Stop card is used, LHO can take as long (or as short) as she needs.

If you have something to think about, you're always allowed to take that time. There's nothing in the Stop card regulation that says you're limited to 10 seconds.

Of course, if you take much longer than 10 seconds, there will be UI regardless of the use of the Stop card. 10 seconds is a long time.

[Vampyr]

 barmar, on 2014-October-21, 15:18, said:

If you have something to think about, you're always allowed to take that time. There's nothing in the Stop card regulation that says you're limited to 10 seconds.

No, but 10 seconds is the "normal" time; if you think for less time you are still required to pause for 10 seconds. Do any other jurisdictions require the bidder to time himself?

[nige1]

 aguahombre, on 2014-October-21, 10:26, said:

AND, is my opinion of LHO...expressed by use of the Stop Card...AI or UI?

Anyway, unless I am in a jurisdiction which requires its use, you will never see the Stop Card come out of my box unless I thought it was a Double by mistake.

Pity because when it was introduced, stop legislation was a good idea -- addressing a real problem -- the UI from the break in tempo that jump bid bids often engendered. Unfortunately, different RAs implemented it in different ways. And players sometimes disregard local regulations, especially when they seem daft. Players would benefit If the WBFLC took the time to extract best practice from the current chaos into new universal law

[aguahombre]

Yes, the Stop Card was well intentioned at the outset. But, it has proved to be a bad idea.

It has become an excuse for the opponents not to pay attention to the bids.
It has become a distraction from the real issue when there is a break in tempo. "Was the stop card Used?"...instead of dealing with the break in tempo and its ramifications.
It is misused to wake partner up.
The burden of proper tempo should be on the person required to maintain tempo. It shouldn't be the responsibility of the opponents to remind us of our obligations or to count down for us.

[Lanor Fow]

 Vampyr, on 2014-October-21, 16:27, said:

No, but 10 seconds is the "normal" time; if you think for less time you are still required to pause for 10 seconds. Do any other jurisdictions require the bidder to time himself?

The EBU does

[weejonnie]

Because the stop card is a single card, I have noticed some players using it, literally, to tell partner that this is the final contract. The demeanour is self evident - often accompanied by a very fast use of the card itself.

There is also the problem for the LHO in that they are supposed to look studious

It also gets abused when there is a mis-fit and warns partner not to carry on.

Of course in many auctions it isn't needed. If EW are silent are they likely to bid if the auction goes

pass: 1S: pass: 2H : pass
Stop 4 Clubs

(well maybe. after 3 Clubs EW would be silent - but they might double a splinter as lead directing. The stop card gives advance warning that a splinter may be coming)

NB - it is the person who pulls out the stop card who should count. It is only if he withdraws the stop card prematurely that the LHO has to continue thinking.

"Before making a jump bid (i.e. a bid at a higher level than the minimum required) a player must place the Stop card in front of him, then place his call as usual, and eventually remove the Stop card. His left-hand opponent should not call until the Stop card has been removed. The Stop card should be left on the table for about ten seconds, to give the next player time to reflect. It should not be removed prematurely.

After a jump bid; the next player must pause for about ten seconds before calling. It is an offence either not to pause or to show indifference when pausing. If the Stop card has been removed prematurely or has not been used, an opponent should pause as though the Stop card had been used correctly."

To count to 10 seconds I use the 1000 rule: Thinking of saying "1001, 1002, 1003, 1004...1010" is pretty close to the mark.

It does help stop insufficient bids and gives time to assimilate the extra information that the jump bid provides.

If it were obviously bad no RA would use it. If it was obviously good all RAs would use it.

[WellSpyder]

 weejonnie, on 2014-October-22, 05:50, said:

To count to 10 seconds I use the 1000 rule: Thinking of saying "1001, 1002, 1003, 1004...1010" is pretty close to the mark.

Yes, we could all have a go at that to avoid bidding prematurely. Vampyr's point, though, is that it is a lot tougher to do that if you are actually also trying to decide what or whether to bid.

[barmar]

 WellSpyder, on 2014-October-22, 07:12, said:

Yes, we could all have a go at that to avoid bidding prematurely. Vampyr's point, though, is that it is a lot tougher to do that if you are actually also trying to decide what or whether to bid.

The theory is that if you actually have to think about something, you'll take close to, or even more than, 10 seconds as a result. It's when you don't have something to think about that you have to time yourself, so that your non-thinking pause will be as long as a thinking pause.

No one is holding a stopwatch to players, requiring every Stop-card hesitation to be precisely 10 seconds. I would laugh at someone who claimed UI was transmitted because someone took only 8 seconds rather than the full 10 seconds. What information does that impart? It could be that he had something to thinking about, but it wasn't so hard that it took all of 10 seconds, or it could just be that he didn't count 10 seconds very well. Unless the player is incredibly precise when he makes the forced 10-second pauses, and partner is also timing him carefully, this is too close to call.

Again, my opinion may be biased due to habits in the US. Around here, even players who do hesitate after skip bids (with or without the card) rarely take the full 10 seconds. We make a show of thinking about something, but 10 seconds is a LONG time. I haven't timed myself, but I think I rarely make it beyond 5 seconds. But since I also rarely take longer than this when I do have something to think about, I don't see how any UI is conveyed.

[Vampyr]

 Lanor Fow, on 2014-October-22, 05:21, said:

The EBU does

Well, the following passage from WB 1.6.2 Is contradictory for sure:

Quote

The Stop card should be left on the table for about ten seconds, to give the next player time to reflect. It should not be removed prematurely.
After a jump bid, the next player MUST pause for about ten seconds before calling. It is an offence either not to pause or to show indifference when pausing. If the Stop card has been removed prematurely or has not been used, an opponent should nevertheless pause as though the Stop card had been used correctly.

But I think that it is obvious that if the first requirement is not fulfilled, LHO will be given some degree of latitude.

How bonkers is it that a regulation such as this, which is needed by players, appears in the book which is intended for TDs, instead of the one (Blue Book) which is intended for players? The EBU's L&E publications are a shambles. It is truly hopeless.

[Vampyr]

 barmar, on 2014-October-22, 09:05, said:

We make a show of thinking about something, but 10 seconds is a LONG time. I haven't timed myself, but I think I rarely make it beyond 5 seconds.

If you don't need to think, or are the Stop-card holder, sing "When I'm 64" to yourself. You will finish the word "valentine" after 10 seconds.