[case_no_6]

 dboxley, on 2014-April-27, 16:56, said:

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What went wrong?

What went wrong is that the 1H overcaller failed to show the potential to play in spades. I don't like to Double for takeout with 4 spades and 5 hearts if responder's bid in the other minor would be embarrassing as it would be here.

Rather, in my way of thinking, a Michaels cue bid of 2D is useful for showing hands interested in only the majors when holding 4 spades and 5 hearts or 5-5 in the majors. Partner will prefer to bid hearts without a clear preference and will bid spades only with a clear preference.

I do not advocate the Michaels bid with unequal length in the majors when spades are longer, however. Notice that, had everyone's heart and spade holdings been reversed, the 1S overcaller (in the actual deal, the 1H overcaller) would have been able to compete with 3H to discover the heart fit.

[ShirleyMqz]

Any time I try double with a hand like this my partner responds in clubs. I'm with case_no_6 here; I'd be inclined to fudge the spade length and bid Michaels. In the actual auction, North has no clue that his spade holding is so valuable and he may also be concerned about his length in small clubs; I wouldn't accept the game invite with his hand.

[jmcilkley]

 dboxley, on 2014-April-27, 16:56, said:

---

What went wrong?

Well, my first though is "what strange bidding by S". Double then bidding a suit would show a 17+ point hand, Bidding a suit and then doubling would show the same - some hands are better to suited to doubling first and some to overcall first.
So, firstly, S only has 15 points and not 17. And secondly why is S doubling 3d anyway after partner has agreed hearts? That does NOT show 4 spades but for me is a penalty double of 3d. If S wants to bid on then he can rebid the agreed suit of hearts.
I would agree that it would be better on this hand for S to start with a double to show spades as well as hearts but game looks like a long shot with only a combined 21 points. I would be happy to play in 3h and if it's a bad score then others are taking silly risks.

[MrAce]

 jmcilkley, on 2014-April-29, 02:56, said:

Well, my first though is "what strange bidding by S". Double then bidding a suit would show a 17+ point hand, Bidding a suit and then doubling would show the same - some hands are better to suited to doubling first and some to overcall first.
So, firstly, S only has 15 points and not 17. And secondly why is S doubling 3d anyway after partner has agreed hearts? That does NOT show 4 spades but for me is a penalty double of 3d. If S wants to bid on then he can rebid the agreed suit of hearts.
I would agree that it would be better on this hand for S to start with a double to show spades as well as hearts but game looks like a long shot with only a combined 21 points. I would be happy to play in 3h and if it's a bad score then others are taking silly risks.

In competition if there is no space between our suit and theirs, then dbl is invitation to game. If there is a space between our suit and theirs (at 3 level) then we use that space to invite. South bid perfectly. Btw 2 different path never shows the same.

[Vampyr]

I would also use the double as a game try, which North should (pretty clearly IMO) accept. His diamond singleton and outside ace are really valuable -- especially as he could have been raising very light. I don't agree with any of the methods to to try to show spades suggested by pervious posters. It would be nice, but life is not perfect. North could have made a fit non-jump if his partnership agreement is to do this with Jxx in partner's suit.

[gnasher]

I don't think game is borderline. The opponents have a 10-card fit and combined 19-count, and they gave up at the three-level. It's not very likely that either of them has a singleton spade.

If South's double is a game-try, I think North has an obvious acceptance. He has a singleton and an ace, and two of his three jacks are likely to be working. How much more would you need?

[MrAce]

 gnasher, on 2014-April-29, 15:04, said:

I don't think game is borderline. The opponents have a 10-card fit and combined 19-count, and they gave up at the three-level...

N did not know yet opponents will not compete to 4♦ and sit on 3♥ at the time he bid 3♥. Can it also be that their diamonds are not pure?

 gnasher, on 2014-April-29, 15:04, said:

It's not very likely that either of them has a singleton spade.

Perhaps 2 or 3 ♦ was a stretch due to stiff ♠.


But anyway, I might be missing something but, as North, how and at which point did you figure out that pd holds 4 card spades, headed by the K, and decided that opponents competing only to 3 level indicated spades are 2-2 (debatable) and thus it is a clear 4♥ bid? How many times our stiff became surprise for pd when they bid 1-2-3? Yes when pd has 2 of them it may be a surprise obviously. My point is we both can be relying on same values that we already anticipated.

Imho the problem was given us in wrong form. We should have been given only the N hand to prevent bias.

[mike777]

If double is for takeout...ok\
If double is for penalty ...ok


I think even true experts find these other doubles confusing and at timea UI comes up more often then they prefer to admit.

I will omit the few World Class players around the world.

With all of that said double is often the best option for many lesser players given a difficult bidding problem

[gnasher]

 MrAce, on 2014-April-29, 19:49, said:

N did not know yet opponents will not compete to 4♦ and sit on 3♥ at the time he bid 3♥. Can it also be that their diamonds are not pure?

I wasn't saying that North knew this in the bidding. I was just responding to comments like "Not that it's a great game" and "it's a borderline game", which are about how good the game is when we can see both hands.

Quote

But anyway, I might be missing something but, as North, how and at which point did you figure out that pd holds 4 card spades, headed by the K, and decided that opponents competing only to 3 level indicated spades are 2-2 (debatable) and thus it is a clear 4♥ bid? How many times our stiff became surprise for pd when they bid 1-2-3? Yes when pd has 2 of them it may be a surprise obviously. My point is we both can be relying on same values that we already anticipated.

I didn't. I merely examined my own hand. Constructive bidding is easier if you each describe your own hand in the context of what you've already shown, rather than assuming that partner already knows about some of it.

South's double says "I want you to bid game if your hand is good in the context of your actions so far." North's hand obviously passes that test.

North should think that ♠J is likely to be a useful card because it's in his long suit and backed by an ace, so that any black-suit honour opposite will make it a potential trick.

[Jinksy]

 gnasher, on 2014-April-29, 15:04, said:

If South's double is a game-try, I think North has an obvious acceptance. He has a singleton and an ace, and two of his three jacks are likely to be working. How much more would you need?

The third jack?

[MrAce]

 Jinksy, on 2014-April-30, 05:53, said:

The third jack?

[benlessard]

North hand will often make 3 tricks, but youve just showned a competitive raise. How can you not bid 4H over the GT double ?

[Fluffy]

I don't worry about missing 21 HCP games with 8 trumps when methods do not allow to unfold the double fit. Specially those who are far from cold.

[gwnn]

 Fluffy, on 2014-May-01, 01:26, said:

I don't worry about missing 21 HCP games with 8 trumps when methods do not allow to unfold the double fit. Specially those who are far from cold.

I agree with not worrying but are you saying that you don't think North should accept the game try? The game is only so super thin because S was really pushing it with the game try.

[MrAce]

 gwnn, on 2014-May-01, 01:32, said:

I agree with not worrying but are you saying that you don't think North should accept the game try? The game is only so super thin because S was really pushing it with the game try.

Really? S showed a 7-17 hcp hand and he has 15 with a favorable Kx and you think he is pushing? I thought he has his bid.

[cherdano]

 MrAce, on 2014-May-01, 10:03, said:

Really? S showed a 7-17 hcp hand and he has 15 with a favorable Kx and you think he is pushing? I thought he has his bid.

Who cares what his range is? His partner is a passed hand that did not bid 3♦.

[mike777]

North might try 2s rather than 2h as a maximum passed hand with long spades, h support and short d.

I assume as a passed hand 2s shows something different from 3d over 2d.

[gnasher]

 MrAce, on 2014-May-01, 10:03, said:

Really? S showed a 7-17 hcp hand and he has 15 with a favorable Kx and you think he is pushing? I thought he has his bid.

There's nothing special about having a king in a suit that both opponents have bid. High cards are at their most valuable when they can combine with other high cards, or when they can turn long cards into tricks.

[Cyberyeti]

 dake50, on 2014-April-28, 06:09, said:

I'm guessing the spades were conveniently located so you made an overtrick? -- Bbradley62

*** That's a wildly likely assumption:
SQ single drops under SK
+SQx drops
+S:Q10xx onside discovered on SK
+they decide 5D-X is cheap.
The point is that's surely over VUL game percent and equal nv game percent.

Too simplistic, say you play 4♠. The play goes heart to the A, heart ruff, diamond to the A, heart ruff for example.

If you play 4♥ you can be equally embarrassed by a singleton spade lead with opener having ♥ A or Ax and the ace of diamonds, or a first round spade ruff and a club switch.

I suspect it's worth bidding, but it's not quite as clear as you claim.

[MrAce]

 cherdano, on 2014-May-01, 14:16, said:

Who cares what his range is? His partner is a passed hand that did not bid 3♦.

I care, especially when my overcall is about 8 points higher than my minimum and about 5 points higher than my average overcall. Are you telling me that most people would not invite with S hand?