[32519]

The Rule of Eighteen is a rule employed by the World Bridge Federation to define the boundary between light opening bids and Highly Unusual Methods, known as HUM, in which bad hands are regularly opened.

The Rule of Nineteen is a rule employed by the bridge players in England to satisfy the requirements of the World Bridge Federation to define the boundary between light opening bids and Highly Unusual Methods, known as HUM, in which bad hands are regularly opened.

In the original Precision system all 11 counts were opened. Nowadays I see more and more Precision players opening all 10 counts and then splitting opener’s second bid into two ranges as follows –
1. A minimum opening = 10-12 HCP (3 point range)
2. A maximum opening = 13-15 HCP (3 point range)
Any non-jump or non-reverse second bid by opener would show a minimum. Conversely, any jump or reverse second bid by opener would show a maximum.

Furthermore, having watched plenty of VuGraph live broadcasts I see others opening 10 counts as well.

So the issue here is – if more and more players are opening 8 counts (the rule of 18), 9 counts (the rule of 19), or all 10 counts – then Drury / Reverse Drury has become obsolete and can be confined to the dustbin.

[Bbradley62]

No; part (if not most) of the point to Drury is to avoid getting to the 3 level with not enough combined strength to be successful there. If anything, light openings increase the value of using [Reverse] Drury, maybe even after first and second seat openings.

[ArtK78]

 32519, on 2014-March-27, 12:54, said:

The Rule of Eighteen is a rule employed by the World Bridge Federation to define the boundary between light opening bids and Highly Unusual Methods, known as HUM, in which bad hands are regularly opened.

The Rule of Nineteen is a rule employed by the bridge players in England to satisfy the requirements of the World Bridge Federation to define the boundary between light opening bids and Highly Unusual Methods, known as HUM, in which bad hands are regularly opened.

In the original Precision system all 11 counts were opened. Nowadays I see more and more Precision players opening all 10 counts and then splitting opener's second bid into two ranges as follows –
1. A minimum opening = 10-12 HCP (3 point range)
2. A maximum opening = 13-15 HCP (3 point range)
Any non-jump or non-reverse second bid by opener would show a minimum. Conversely, any jump or reverse second bid by opener would show a maximum.

Furthermore, having watched plenty of VuGraph live broadcasts I see others opening 10 counts as well.

So the issue here is – if more and more players are opening 8 counts (the rule of 18), 9 counts (the rule of 19), or all 10 counts – then Drury / Reverse Drury has become obsolete and can be confined to the dustbin.

I was reading this post wondering where it was going. And then, all of a sudden, a logical leap that Drury was no longer valid.

If the logic, such as it is, is that a passed hand is now so light that it can't invite game. I don't follow that - seems to me it is just a matter of adjusting your expectations for the Drury bid.



EDIT: I apologize. I should have said "leap of logic" rather than "logical leap." I don't see anything logical about drawing the conclusion stated from the premise.

[Vampyr]

 Bbradley62, on 2014-March-27, 12:59, said:

No; part (if not most) of the point to Drury is to avoid getting to the 3 level with not enough combined strength to be successful there. If anything, light openings increase the value of using [Reverse] Drury, maybe even after first and second seat openings.

If this approach is adopted it might be wise to play "traditional" (non-fit) Drury, so you can still show a good hand with clubs.

 ArtK78, on 2014-March-27, 13:02, said:

I was reading this post wondering where it was going. And then, all of a sudden, a logical leap that Drury was no longer valid.

If the logic, such as it is, is that a passed hand is now so light that it can't invite game. I don't follow that - seems to me it is just a matter of adjusting your expectations for the Drury bid.

Also, of course, the "rules" 325 cites apply, by definition, to very shapely hands.

[kenrexford]

I open just about any 11 count, and I use Drury. However, I have always thought that Drury is really an artificial constructive raise anyway. If you think along those lines, Drury still makes sense.

For example, if the opening style is just about any 10 and most 9 hands, then 2C would be a hand with, say, 8 or 9 working count. Maybe Qxx xxx Kxx Kxxx? Typically three cards, or two and a promising tenace like Kxx AJ9x xx xxx?

The artificial call allows a delayed minisplinter, as well. If you add in the stiff into either hand above (honors-wise), you get to 11 or 12 playing strength, if not more. 2D by Opener can ask for the stiff if u have any, for example.

[mike777]

I open light and never use Drury. Having a 3 card limit raise as a passed hand and the opp passing is rare very rare. I just go through 1nt sf.

If it matters I play constructive raises(1M=2M) as 8-11 support pts.

btw2 opening light also tends to make your 4th seat openers more sound such as in the rule of 15.

btw3 since I play an artificial 2c and 2d opening, this allows for a natural 2/1 by a passed hand to come up a bit more often. In other words these issues depend on the rest of your system to some degree.

Opening an 8 count is pretty rare

ATxx...AT9xxx..void...xxx(3 first round controls)

[Free]

 32519, on 2014-March-27, 12:54, said:

So the issue here is – if more and more players are opening 8 counts (the rule of 18), 9 counts (the rule of 19), or all 10 counts – then Drury / Reverse Drury has become obsolete and can be confined to the dustbin.

This is as true as saying "if more and more people are playing mini NT - then transfers have become obsolete and can be confined to the dustbin"...

[paulg]

 32519, on 2014-March-27, 12:54, said:

The Rule of Eighteen is a rule employed by the World Bridge Federation to define the boundary between light opening bids and Highly Unusual Methods, known as HUM, in which bad hands are regularly opened.

The Rule of Nineteen is a rule employed by the bridge players in England to satisfy the requirements of the World Bridge Federation to define the boundary between light opening bids and Highly Unusual Methods, known as HUM, in which bad hands are regularly opened.

Both these statements are untrue.

[glen]

 32519, on 2014-March-27, 12:54, said:

Nowadays I see more and more Precision players opening all 10 counts and then splitting opener’s second bid into two ranges as follows –
1. A minimum opening = 10-12 HCP (3 point range)
2. A maximum opening = 13-15 HCP (3 point range)
Any non-jump or non-reverse second bid by opener would show a minimum. Conversely, any jump or reverse second bid by opener would show a maximum.

Nobody I've seen is doing this. For example 1♠-1NT-2♣ is not limited to 12, and nobody is jumping to 3♣ on a 5-1-3-4 13 count.

[Siegmund]

With several of my partners, we have an agreement to not play Drury; instead we open 1m on any hand that would make us wish we had Drury if partner opened 1M in 3rd seat.

It is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a necessary convention. Helpful, in some bidding styles and systems, yes.

[sfi]

 Siegmund, on 2014-March-27, 18:36, said:

With several of my partners, we have an agreement to not play Drury; instead we open 1m on any hand that would make us wish we had Drury if partner opened 1M in 3rd seat.

Would you really open KQx ATxx Jxxx xx with 1D? Or KJxx x KQxxx xxx? Both of those look like perfectly good invitations after partner opens 1S, but not really opening bids in 1st/2nd seats. If you really follow this rule your opening bids are going to be light enough that you're playing a light opening bid system, where the considerations are much different.

In a couple of my recent partnerships we liked the Drury concept enough that we have adopted a version of it even over 1st/2nd seat openings. The ability to invite and remain at the 2-level is enough of a clear win that we restructed much of our system around it.

The only time I have scrapped Drury in a partnership was when we were playing a 10-12 NT. That means you open most of the hands you would want to invite on (like my first example), so its frequency is much lower. The hands you do want to invite with (such as my second example) are distributional, so getting to the 3-level has a second way to win, by potentially preempting the opposition.

[mike777]

I agree I would not open either one of these but then neither of these would be a 3 card limit raise either.

as I mentioned, you don't really need to play drury if you open light.
1) constructive raise or if you insist this is better( 8LTC) then try 1nt sf.
2) typical 4 card limit raise.

Of course in both cases we make the big assumption that the opp are silent but they seldom are when you open light.

[32519]

True to form, you guys have all missed the point. Douglas Drury died in 1967. In his era players were opening 13 counts. The game is becoming more and more aggressive. Today the side who opens the bidding gets in the first blow, taking away bidding space from the opponents at the same time. In todays game, Drury has become obsolete.

[Vampyr]

 32519, on 2014-March-27, 23:19, said:

True to form, you guys have all missed the point. Douglas Drury died in 1967. In his era players were opening 13 counts. The game is becoming more and more aggressive. Today the side who opens the bidding gets in the first blow, taking away bidding space from the opponents at the same time. In todays game, Drury has become obsolete.

Well, several points have definitely been missed by someone, that is for sure.

Your arguments seem to be in support of the premise that Drury should be played after openings in all positions. I have never known that anyone does this, but people I know may play this way and it has just never come up against me. I am sure it is standard practice among people who open as light as you are saying.

[Mbodell]

 Vampyr, on 2014-March-28, 00:03, said:

Well, several points have definitely been missed by someone, that is for sure.

Your arguments seem to be in support of the premise that Drury should be played after openings in all positions. I have never known that anyone does this, but people I know may play this way and it has just never come up against me. I am sure it is standard practice among people who open as light as you are saying.

I've done that in a strong club system, but it is midchart in the ACBL which is a PITA as you can't use it in many events.

[helene_t]

Drury is even better for lights openers who can't have a natural 2/1 as a passed hand

[steve2005]

 Siegmund, on 2014-March-27, 18:36, said:

With several of my partners, we have an agreement to not play Drury; instead we open 1m on any hand that would make us wish we had Drury if partner opened 1M in 3rd seat.

It is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a necessary convention. Helpful, in some bidding styles and systems, yes.

This doesn't make sense. if your opening on hands where you wish you were playing Drury doesn't it make sense to play Drury?

Also, I don't understand people's logic that because people are opening lighter Drury obsolete. It's still better to play at the 2-level than the 3-level. Responder can have a hand not good enough to open light but because of partner's opening has a fit so worth some sort of constructibe or INV raise.

[helene_t]

Well if a pass in first/second seat denies 9 points with a 3-card in a major then obviously the need to play Drury is not so great. But then again, the need for a a natural 2♣ response won't be great either. I think all hands with which you would wish that you were not playing Drury would have opened either 3♣ or 1♣ as well.

[Vampyr]

 steve2005, on 2014-March-28, 06:12, said:

This doesn't make sense. if your opening on hands where you wish you were playing Drury doesn't it make sense to play Drury?

To put it more simply than Helene did, what is the point of using Drury when you have already opened?

Quote

Also, I don't understand people's logic that because £13 [[/people are opening lighter Drury obsolete.

Well. person's logic. No one understands it.

[Vampyr]

 Mbodell, on 2014-March-28, 01:30, said:

I've done that in a strong club system, but it is midchart in the ACBL which is a PITA as you can't use it in many events.

It sounds as if Drury was allowed because of custom and practice, not because it matched the philosophy behind the systems policy, so they compromised. It's kind of like the inclusion of the Multi at EBU Level 2; you have to have a strong option and the only Multi-style bid you can play is 2♦.

The difference is that we don't normally have to play at Level 2.